New to bonsai. Chinese elm from seed need help. Very confused.

[Bonsai Nut]

so if its not cool enough for a month after 30 days keep them in for 60 or what. why 30 - 60 days thats the last part i dont get. they havent been in for long 3 or so days now. so i dont know if it will be cool enough in march for the last thirty days to be out side. so just keep them in for sixty or what?

Your question doesn't have an exact answer. One of the first rules of bonsai is "always let the tree be your guide". In the case of elm seeds, they could be from different trees, in different climates, and each seed could be different from the seed next to it. Some are bigger, some are smaller, some are fertile, some are not. A seed goes through a complicated process to know when to germinate. When you receive seeds in the mail, you don't really know the combination of conditions that will cause those particular seeds to germinate. So you start with an "average" and hope for the best.

In the case of Chinese Elm seeds, they are not cold-hardy trees that need a deep cold period in order to germinate. In the wild, they typically follow an annual season where the trees seed in the early spring, and when it starts to warm up, the mature seeds fall from the trees and germinate without problem. But if you get dry seeds in the mail, you have to recreate these conditions artificially. The first thing you do is to soak them for 24 hours to "wake them up". Then you put them in a short "cold stratification" to make them think it is late winter/early spring. Then, assuming your outdoor conditions are right, you plant them, and they think it is late spring and they germinate. The 30-60 day range is just a guess... If you are experiencing cold (but not freezing) weather, you can probably just plant them outside in December, and let cold stratification occur naturally. But if you stratify them in your refrigerator, 30 days is considered the minimum guideline. If you keep them longer in the fridge, there is no real downside... but you need to check them regularly for any signs of germination. The day they start to germinate in the bag in the fridge, you HAVE to get them outside and into soil, or they will germinate in the fridge, and because they don't have any soil or sunlight, will just die.

In the case of being in extremely cold climate (like in Canada), you can time your cold stratification so that your seeds are ready to be planted right when Spring arrives. Otherwise you will have to have some sort of indoor solution - grow lights or a bright warm window area - because once the seeds germinate they have to be allowed to grow for a season or they will die. You can't start the process and then stop it.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I picked them off of a tree last spring and planted them the next day.
2 weeks to sprout and now I have close to 100 elm saplings 18" to 24" tall. These were American elm not Chinese.

Depending on where you live, American elm will seed as early as February (in the south) or as late as May (in the north). If you are fortunate enough to have native trees growing in your yard, you don't have to worry about artificial conditions - just plant them when they ripen and Mother Nature will take care of the details

 

[koda659]

thank you for the help. sorry for all the questions but just want to make sur i start off on the right foot. i got my pots setup for the plants the other day so that they are ready waiting. and i geuss its good their in now for early spring planting. where would be the best place for them out side. the will be in i think 5'' or 6'' clay pots with home mixed soil mix.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

In the case of the Chinese elm seeds I have this year, they are from a tree in Ohio. I received the seeds in November. I targeted to have them planted by mid-January, so I started cold stratification in mid-December. When I put them in the soil on January 16th, only about a dozen seeds showed signs of germination - the majority were still dormant. Time will tell if the rest germinate, or if they are just dead seeds...

 

[koda659]

and while we are on the topic of bonsai.how hard is it to trans pant natural collections. i have a range of multiple sumac seedlings in my back yard range from seedlings from last year to 5 or 6 years ago. i would like to take one of the 2 year olds and train it for bonsai. i know i cant train it right away but how do i transplant it and what is the after care.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I would recommend you start a new thread for a different subject. Perhaps I should add... sumac are difficult subjects for bonsai because of the large compound leaves.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

You have gotten good advice regarding chinese elm seed. One tip I can add, If the normal time to plant out tomatoes is for example May 1, and you put your seed in moist media in the refrigerator to stratify for that date. If the seed start sprouting early, even if it is a month or two early, you can usually "HOLD THEM" in the refrigerator until it is safe to plant them out. If your refrigerator stays belwo 40 F or 4 C but above freezing, the seeds will germinate, and then rest until it is warmer. You can hold germinated seed this way for one to two months no problem, sometimes even 3. So rather than plant them out inside the minute they germinate, you can hold them the couple months needed to get to your last frost safe date for your growing area. I don't know what your's might be, I just threw May 1 out there as it is my local average last frost date.

Interesting aside, if you stratify acorns of oak trees, normally they will in early autumn put out a root. Then they go dormant until their 4 month stratification requirement is met. If you take them out early, because you saw the root grow, they simply will sit, without further growth. They need their stratification, and will sit dormant with roots formed and sticking out of the acorn, but no stems or leaf development. Then when warmth returns in May or June (later than many species) they take off growing. Just an interesting aside.

 

[milehigh_7]

One last thing. Ulmus parvifolia flowers in the fall and Ulmus pumila or Siberian Elm flowers in the spring before leaves push. This is both a good way to identify and also the reason you don't see many crosses. However, it is said that the pollen stores well so you could, in theory pollinate by hand to experiment. That could be quite fun!

 

[M. Frary]

Siberian Elm flowers in the spring

American elm also. I have Siberian,American and the cross between the 2.

 

[koda659]

First ones up and sheding his shell!! 1 out of 6 so far we'll see how it goes. Also have 2 japanese cherry blossom seeds I bought from 9greenbox for my wifes mom but never ended up giving them to her so I started 2 out of my 10. It said just put them in the soil and and keep it moist. Is that right? But back to the elms, so happy I one up hopefully I get some more.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@koda659 - congrats. Your experiment is working. I was not familar with the seed company you purchased from. Glad they sent you viable seed. If you get into raising trees from seed, I would give Sheffield Seed a try, or Schumacker Seed. Buy at least 25 seeds at a time, You never get 100% germination. Southern Ontario is zone 6 or 5b depending on how close you are to the Great Lakes. Looking forward to seeing how your seedlings look next year. There are dozens of good for bonsai species that either are native or will grow well in your area. Elms, Japanese maples, junpiers, larch, hornbeam, deciduous holly, and many more. While waiting for the elms to grow, do either collect, or buy from a nursery a couple trees that are old enough to actually do some ''bonsai techniques'' on. Have fun.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

First, it helps to know your location...

Second, Chinese Elm does not need a hard cold stratification. If you have cool/cold nights in the winter, naturally, that is probably all you need. However if you want to be 100% certain, you can cold stratify in the refrigerator. 30-60 days is the recommended period. I stratified mine 30 days, knowing that I still have a month of cold evenings ahead.

All you need to do to cold stratify is put them in a plastic bag in the fridge. You want to keep them moist, and neither soaking wet or bone dry. I use a moist paper towel. Because Chinese Elm seeds are so small, I do not, as a rule, have a problem with mold or mildew, but if you do, replace your paper towel with a towel soaked in a 10% hydrogen peroxide solution, and you should not have any further issues.

After your cold stratification period, plant them in a loamy soil planting mix, on the surface or just below the surface. Keep moist and do not allow to dry out. Protect from critters (birds, rats, chipmunks, etc). I use a clear plastic cover that I weigh down. Let them grow one season (one year) before you transplant - the roots are too tender to handle transplanting any earlier.

Good luck!

I collected some seeds today right off an old tree, they were wet cuz rain the past 2 days and it was about 40 degrees we've already had about a week at least of getting into the 20's at night. Think that's good enough?

 

[Aaron S.]

On the Chinese Elm seeds, are you supposed to remove them from the flat round husk?

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

On the Chinese Elm seeds, are you supposed to remove them from the flat round husk?

I just planted em watered em and they sprouted fast af like 4 days, 7 tops I grabbed about 2 handfuls and just planted em now I got at least a hundred this is them today.

 

[GSCALER]

idk there so much out there. im trying to figure out how to start them. the place i bought them from said yes to cold strat, same with others, but some say you dont. like i said new to bonsai of coarse pick a hard tree to start with. it says that it does work well for beginer bonsai artists aswell. im just try to figure it out would love to get at least one of these but got no idea how to start them.

I placed my seeds on a paper towel for 60 days and the seeds disappeared?? Some i placed in moist sand and they too disappeared??? I have read that chinese elm are an invasive species in Vancouver Canada. Vancouver does not experience a cold winter.