New Austrian Black Pine. Opinions?

[Myrki]

Hey there. Here is my Lowe’s pickup for today. It’s fairly tall (for me) which is quite unlike my junipers so I like that. Originally I was thinking of bending the top branch downwards and making a literati but then I saw this one which has a sort of twin trunk which none of the others had so I thought well that’s unique at least.

What are your opinions on styling? Try to utilize the twin trunk?

Thanks!

 

[Myrki]

?

 

[PowerTap]

I would say priority one will be getting a better look at the roots and where those two trunks separate.

 

[Myrki]

Did a little wiring. Don’t know. Here r examples I like attached,

 

[Shibui]

Beginners always seem to try to keep as much trunk as possible for a quick result. Understandable but turns out not the best way to develop good bonsai. If you really want to keep something that already looks like a tree and are happy to have a tall, skinny tree that's fine and you can skip the rest of this advice.

Young trunks are naturally long with very little taper which is NOT what we want as bonsai. Just waiting and hoping will not put taper into a tree trunk. Wiring can give curves but will not give better taper. In my experience cutting the trunk and using a side branch is the best and quickest way to achieve taper in both trunk and branches. It usually also gives me much more natural bends.
It may seem to be going backwards and throwing away much of the tree you paid good $ for but chopping to a lower branch actually adds future value to your potential bonsai.

As mentioned, you may prefer to stay with the initial styling and maintain some semblance of 'tree' in your early tries.

 

[Myrki]

I appreciate this advice, and I’m confident cutting back like you said is the best for the long term. That said, I simply just wired it up for now….. I know, I didn’t listen. Maybe I’ll pick up another one of these and take it down.

For this one, as it sits, I don’t know what to do with the top, wait for more shoots to fill out (if that’ll happen) or cut back to the neck grouping of shoots, or bend the top way down on top of itself and create the apex with it curled down and up

 

[rockm]

Did a little wiring. Don’t know. Here r examples I like attached,

You know those trees you've pictured were NOT grown out in containers. They were collected from the wild, if I'm not mistaken. Your trees need substantial growth without any intervention for a very long while, preferably in the ground. Wiring them now will slow any development down. FWIW, "big" bonsai are not grown up from small trees for the most part. They are cut down from larger trees. It's not an easy process developing a pine from saplings like this. It requires knowledge of how the tree grows and observation of those processes. That takes a while Don't rush things if you value the trunks here

 

[ponderingsage]

You can also let it grow out a bit and cut back like Shibui suggested once the trunk thickness is about where you want it.

There is a point in everybody’s Bonsai journey where you have to get nursery stock and style just to practice and scratch that itch. But it’s also good to begin growing things out for better development.
Last year I picked up the same thing at Lowe’s and repotted it in an Anderson flat to grow out.

 

[Myrki]

Great feedback thank u both!

 

[Myrki]

You can also let it grow out a bit and cut back like Shibui suggested once the trunk thickness is about where you want it.

There is a point in everybody’s Bonsai journey where you have to get nursery stock and style just to practice and scratch that itch. But it’s also good to begin growing things out for better development.
Last year I picked up the same thing at Lowe’s and repotted it in an Anderson flat to grow out.

I think I need an Anderson flat! Just google it or are these available at typical stores/nurseries?

 

[ponderingsage]

I think I need an Anderson flat! Just google it or are these available at typical stores/nurseries?

They are tricky to buy as there are often minimum orders… not sure if that has changed or not.

Anderson Pots, Flats & Trays - Stuewe & Sons

Anderson Bands are the quality standard for both bedding plant and tree growing uses. The open cross-bottom air prunes roots growing out of the bottom of the container. The built-in stacking ribs are designed to inhibit root swirling and the square band corners promote root growth. Anderson...

stuewe.com

 

[Myrki]

Is the Anderson flat used so it’s like growing in the ground but still keeps the roots manageable so you can more easily remove it, rather than digging it back up out of the ground?
These r not cheap huh

 

[vesper818]

Is the Anderson flat used so it’s like growing in the ground but still keeps the roots manageable so you can more easily remove it, rather than digging it back up out of the ground?
These r not cheap huh

Plastic colander are cheap!

 

[Applicative]

I think you want to consider what you are trying to accomplish -

1 : are you wiring to create an interesting looking design RIGHT NOW

2. are you wiring as a step to get to a design?

For 1, there are a set up aesthetic rules that if you follow, you get the proportions correct and your tree will look "like a bonsai". cur the needles on bottom, form pads, keep bottom 2/3 branches off etc etc. this is actually really good practice. Learn the styles and practice with low cost material to learn the common patterns that are used.

for 2 - wire can be used to set motion, encourage back budding, maximize sunlight - but nothing is done to maximize how the tree looks "now". most trees in the phase are weird looking. they will be weird looking for 10 years. Is this what your goal is (the development of bonsai). If so cut back to build taper, and grow for many years.

It's often said, but I would also suggest, when your ready, buy trunks already grown out!

(also practice not wiring needles )


the referenced image is an example, many young trees can look like this. practice this skill and you can turn many material into bonsai

 

[Myrki]

View attachment 557873

I think you want to consider what you are trying to accomplish -

1 : are you wiring to create an interesting looking design RIGHT NOW

2. are you wiring as a step to get to a design?

For 1, there are a set up aesthetic rules that if you follow, you get the proportions correct and your tree will look "like a bonsai". cur the needles on bottom, form pads, keep bottom 2/3 branches off etc etc. this is actually really good practice. Learn the styles and practice with low cost material to learn the common patterns that are used.

for 2 - wire can be used to set motion, encourage back budding, maximize sunlight - but nothing is done to maximize how the tree looks "now". most trees in the phase are weird looking. they will be weird looking for 10 years. Is this what your goal is (the development of bonsai). If so cut back to build taper, and grow for many years.

It's often said, but I would also suggest, when your ready, buy trunks already grown out!

(also practice not wiring needles )


the referenced image is an example, many young trees can look like this. practice this skill and you can turn many material into bonsai

Thank you for that! Yes I love that tree, my favorite style is more of a literati which is why I thought maybe I had a chance at literati with my plant. The trunks r thinner than the big tapered people always mention so I think why can’t I make it a thin/skinny trunk tree? There r many tall skinny trees in nature “reaching” for sunlight

 

[Applicative]

Ok cool - check this out




This is a juniper for sale on etsy https://www.etsy.com/listing/153595...a7b1919fb%3A1535953852&organic_search_click=1

Look at what the creator did -- the relationship between the trunk and branches is "in scale" - the other thing they did is that very small side shoots, become side branches:


This is just 1 runner - but the overall effect gives the "illusion" of an older tree:

Lets take a look at your tree for a second:




I think this is the hardest part when you get started in bonsai - you want to use whats existing to "create" a tree - but first and foremost the scale is too long



Take the longest candle on top - and bend it into a `^` shape -- the right side of the ^ is now a new branch coming off the apex -

Cut all the needles off the bottom, shorten all the branches - and work on making everything "in scale" to the trunk.

There are a few apex styles - one ofted used is to take a branch that ends in a fork like a T and bend them into both pointng down

 

[Applicative]

I am not saying horticulturally this is good for the tree - but I think its an excellent way for people to begin to understand a few of the primary principals of scale - after that comes balance and other design considerations.

Austrian and Black pine are challenging for this approach to work because the folliage is so needle it takes a lot of ramification to build up pads - but juniper, even just a twist of foliage becomes branches:

 

[Applicative]

check out this post https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/conifer-apex-building-2-styles.64539/

from @Bonsai Forest

 

[Myrki]

check out this post https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/conifer-apex-building-2-styles.64539/

from @Bonsai Forest

Hey Applicative, I did this, didn’t cut anything shorter yet but I will. Changes? Thanks!

 

[Applicative]