Need help, my BC's condition has changed from great to brown-tips this past week, cannot figure out what's wrong :(

[Zach Smith]

Do you practice the "each new top leader should be half the size of the one before it" method of pruning top-leaders to develop your apex's taper? I can't remember the poster who suggested this to @Mellow Mullet (or discussed it with him) but the idea is of growing the top leader / hard-pruning back each season in a manner where, each year, the new segment you're adding (what you'd grown the year before and are now hard-pruning in spring) is half the size of the one before it. I like the idea and intend to apply it to my tree here although I'll be honest that I'm utterly confused as to what height I should cut that big primary back to, was picturing something like cutting it back to 6-7" and then doing that approach (which if I'm not mistaken is basically the fibonacci sequence in reverse as you go upward through the apex's taper-levels), only I'm not so sure that 50% reductions are best I imagine it depends on the specific piece you're working and that it may be better to reduce the degree of reduction as you go upward...while the later-stage stuff is far-off, the degree to which I prune that leader in January (~early Feb is my current "best date", til I find it's wrong / sub-optimal it's the best I know) does matter and am thinking something like 6-7" is optimal (which means the actual cut should be an inch higher, to account for bad-luck on where things bud!!)

That sounds about right. My rule of thumb, for the most part, is to allow a new leader to run until it's about 2/3 to 3/4 as thick as the transition point, then cut it back to about three basal diameters in length. This produces nice taper and, with a little wire, some movement too. By the time you grow out your apex three or four times like this you should have a smooth transition and great taper. This doesn't apply to flat-top BC, incidentally. Whole different critter.

As for dense ramification, don't expect it with BC because the smallest twigs will die each winter. Work on getting the secondary and tertiary branching looking right. I promise you'll like the way the tree looks just fine.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I have a bunch of BC. Some are seedlings growing in water. Some are nursery grown plants in plastic pots, one from Brussels is in a ceramic pot, and one was collected by Zach this past winter and is in a cut down plastic pot. They are all in different soil mixes ranging from orgainc potting soil my oen inorganic mix, to hadite and bark (Zach’s). All of these have some degree of browning foliage. On most the brown stuff drops off and new green foliage regrows. A few of the brown shoots have new green tips growing out of them. Once they get big and healthy enough you can defoliate the tree about mid-summer and get a second flush of fresh green foliage—just be sure and wait until then.

PS—Zach when are you going to write that book?

 

[SU2]

It's a newbie thing I think.
Keep asking until you get advice you like and forget the rest.

There's a touch of truth there, in that sometimes newbies will do so. Correct me if I'm wrong though, you're referring to me as part of those newbies, are you not? You were here 'liking' the two comments that were negative towards me before you ever posted, but I subsequently replied to those (especially Bill) and explained things, IE that there wasn't a "re-pot" or even a slip-pot, and that, re the branch-removal, I'd looked into it and posted on reddit and here (even linked it in this thread!) to look for advice before going forth, and then went forth on that advice....yet I get accused of "keep asking until you get the advice you like and forget the rest", which if you're referring to me and I've little doubt you are, is utter nonsense. I have 2 BC's that I am in love with and have gone to great lengths before doing *anything* to, trying my hardest to do every last detail right. There was no such thing as "advice I didn't like" as I had no plans, I simply wanted to do whatever was necessary to get a good BC...and I DID follow my advice, yet I'm getting accused of the opposite, and not just in this instance but as-if it's a general thing. I had to flip-back through some of my past threads to get an idea about how things looked now relative to the discussions had at the time, in hoping I could find some reason you'd keep insinuating such a silly thing as wasting time to ask Q's if I didn't care about the answers, and am honestly unsure where you're even getting it from. You and a couple other users just constantly accuse me of it (nobody else on this board, reddit, ausbonsai or IBC has ever accused me of this, once, in 2yrs of being online posting about bonsai), I mean I've seen you have a bit of a 'salty' demeanor but I swear I could post a thread of "how my tree came out after following letter-by-letter instruction from Mr. X", and you'd accuse me of not listening to people's advice.

I wish I could do something to convince you but if me having shown that I actually did seek advice adn follow it in this context, and you still accuse me of not having done so after I literally linked where I had, then I really don't know what will. I don't know if I ever did something to you that upset you or something but it just sucks because I can't figure out any legitimate grievance you could have with me yet I fully expect that in a year, 2yrs etc, you will still be accusing me of not listening, or "liking" any&every comment by choppy or rock that says the same...it's frustrating but I truly don't know what I could do to convince you if linking the advice I followed was insufficient :/

 

[SU2]

That sounds about right. My rule of thumb, for the most part, is to allow a new leader to run until it's about 2/3 to 3/4 as thick as the transition point, then cut it back to about three basal diameters in length. This produces nice taper and, with a little wire, some movement too. By the time you grow out your apex three or four times like this you should have a smooth transition and great taper. This doesn't apply to flat-top BC, incidentally. Whole different critter.

As for dense ramification, don't expect it with BC because the smallest twigs will die each winter. Work on getting the secondary and tertiary branching looking right. I promise you'll like the way the tree looks just fine.

When you say "the transition point", I'm picturing the circumference of the trunk at the middle of the (angled!) trunk-chop? I've read about the "each successive leader cut-back should leave 1/2 as much new-height as the previous cut-back did", and the fibonacci approach to sizing, however if you have a minute I would VERY much like to hear you elaborate on why you said it doesn't apply to flat-top's (which is all I'm growing probably! May make a 'traditional' w/ Jan's collections if I can find just the right specimen, but am going to be going for flat-tops in-general ), for instance even with it being a flat-top I still feel like I'd have to do a strong grow-out of the top-leader to close the wound, no? (also, you mention wiring the top- I'd have guessed movement would be undesirable there, that you'd want to aim for just pure, smooth taper only?)

I would've thought that, for the pictured BC, even if as a flat-top, it wouldn't be something I'd worry about working-into for at least another year....for my larger one, I've got 2 top primaries, each growing to opposite sides (the taller one with an upward arc) so I can have two multi-levelled 'pads'/flat-tops when done, am hoping the "two top primaries" approach is OK for developing a 2-tiered flat-top! Will have to get some pics of how I've braced the branches to see if I'm guiding them right!

 

[SU2]

I have a bunch of BC. Some are seedlings growing in water. Some are nursery grown plants in plastic pots, one from Brussels is in a ceramic pot, and one was collected by Zach this past winter and is in a cut down plastic pot. They are all in different soil mixes ranging from orgainc potting soil my oen inorganic mix, to hadite and bark (Zach’s). All of these have some degree of browning foliage. On most the brown stuff drops off and new green foliage regrows. A few of the brown shoots have new green tips growing out of them. Once they get big and healthy enough you can defoliate the tree about mid-summer and get a second flush of fresh green foliage—just be sure and wait until then.

PS—Zach when are you going to write that book?

2nded on Zack's book!!!

And can't express how happy I am to have learned the rattiness/brown edging wasn't a problem as this thing was (is, actually just started keeping measurements on it to see how it responds now that the escaped-roots can colonize a 5gal) one of my most vigorous trees out of >100, yet it's one of just (2) BC's and I realllllly fell in love w/ the species, was so upset when I first saw the brown-tips!!

Any tips on what I could do to 'wrap' the black-plastic container? My BC in a wooden box hasn't had any rattiness at all!! Would be embarrassed to post a pic of how I've got the black container covered right now When you say the brown drops-off, you mean around this time of year? Would that happen w/ a first-year BC? Was interpreting the replies in this thread along the lines of "you'll have ratty leaflets the remainder of the year, but that's not a problem and not symbolic of growth slowing", wasn't expecting to lose those leaflets (or entire leaves!)

 

[Joe Dupre']

I promised myself I would not touch this last BC it's first year. It was HARD not to touch it, let me tell you! Watered and fertilized like crazy. Longest branch is over 40" and big as my middle finger. Never counted, but it probably has over 30 nice branches. It'll also be hard as heck to cut most of that growth back this coming spring, but that's what it takes.

 

[Zach Smith]

When you say "the transition point", I'm picturing the circumference of the trunk at the middle of the (angled!) trunk-chop? I've read about the "each successive leader cut-back should leave 1/2 as much new-height as the previous cut-back did", and the fibonacci approach to sizing, however if you have a minute I would VERY much like to hear you elaborate on why you said it doesn't apply to flat-top's (which is all I'm growing probably! May make a 'traditional' w/ Jan's collections if I can find just the right specimen, but am going to be going for flat-tops in-general ), for instance even with it being a flat-top I still feel like I'd have to do a strong grow-out of the top-leader to close the wound, no? (also, you mention wiring the top- I'd have guessed movement would be undesirable there, that you'd want to aim for just pure, smooth taper only?)

I would've thought that, for the pictured BC, even if as a flat-top, it wouldn't be something I'd worry about working-into for at least another year....for my larger one, I've got 2 top primaries, each growing to opposite sides (the taller one with an upward arc) so I can have two multi-levelled 'pads'/flat-tops when done, am hoping the "two top primaries" approach is OK for developing a 2-tiered flat-top! Will have to get some pics of how I've braced the branches to see if I'm guiding them right!

The transition point is where the leader leaves the trunk chop point. When the trunk is chopped you have to create taper from the chop point to the ultimate tip. The reason this does not apply to flat-tops is that you're trying to build your flat-top crown (most of the time) right from the point of the trunk chop. This is either a single leader that curves off to one side ultimately lying over horizontal, with branches trained off of it, or two or three leaders with similar training. I don't grow these out till they get 2/3 to 3/4 of the trunk chop diameter and then chop them back. The leader(s) you grow when making a flat top will thicken at the base as you fight to control the developing branches in the crown (it'll be quite a fight). Especially with two or three leaders, each one does not need to be as thick as if there were a single leader. Hence, whole different critter.

 

[Johnathan]

I have a BC, its probably an inch wide at the base lol its in water though. This is definitely a great thread with TONS of information in it for me to use in the future, but that's not why I'm here....

I really just wanted to say @SU2 I love your enthusiasm! and Bill, Zach, Mellow love your willingness to share your knowledge must be that southern hospitality! I'll be in NOLA for Thanksgiving to watch the Dirty Birds get cooked! GEAUX SAINTS!!!

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Here are some photos of some of my BC. Some were grown in water, but most were just sitting in pots. Note the variety of browness. It seems pretty random and some grown in water browned while others right next to them didn’t. In some cases the brown needles/leaves dropped off and were replaced by new shoots and in others new green needles/shoots grew right out of the old.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Just a little something to think about. I lived on Bayou Lafourche for 25 years and had 17 Bald Cypress in my yard. They were approx 15-20 years old when I got there. There was a definite difference (as much as a month) in when they leafed out in the spring and started changing colors in the fall. Some trees would be completely bare while the one next to it was totally green. Some years they had huge crops of ball-shaped cones, and some years hardly any. I guess it boils down to individual trees and their genes.

Bottom line---- I wouldn't worry about a few brown tips.

 

[Daniel son STL]

Still confused why you say you didn’t prune anything, you just cut off branches you didn’t like...