Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
Forgive me for jumping in late...
Confidence in knowing what to buy, is indeed a skill gained in the practice. Which I think is why Eric suggested that the original poster (who has acquired several different trees at this point) start thinking beyond the usual nursery options. Buying trees with some guidence is always wise. But there are some critical considerations when purchasing trees that can help in a pinch...
Do I know anything about the species? (Will it back bud, what kind of growing conditions does it like.)
Does the tree have a good base? (If it doesn't, and you are new... think twice about buying it. If you can't see it... dig around in the pot with your fingers and try and figure it out. If there's nothing anywhere near the surface, you likely have a mess on your hands, and will have to be thinking of a plan to overcome that... again... it goes back to knowing the species.)
Does the tree have reasonable lower branching, or will the tree be able to produce some? Is it anywhere in reference to what is a good view of the base?
Does it have any reasonable trunk size relative to it's potential height? (Sorry... in bonsai... size matters. Always. I don't care if the tree is 3 inches tall or 30.)
Is the bark displaying any signs of maturity? (Many trees can take 7+ years to get any signs of mature bark. The asthetic mature bark lends is not something you can fake.)
How many years am I prepared to invest in it before I get to something I feel good about? (Even with material that costs $100+ you are going to have years on your hands if it's in nursery soil.)
If I can't get somewhat satisfying answers from all of that, I pass it by. That means I pass up almost everything in a garden nursery, and about 90% of all bonsai nursery material. This is neither good nor bad, it just means I know what I want. I know what styles I like. I like to mentally twist a tree into a proverbial pretzel in my mind and decide if it'll take it or not. Thinking beyond what is, to what can be, and will my return be worth the effort.
Needless to say I'm a big fan of collected material... and established trees. I've got some things in cans, but it's more weighted to the other. I've bought some trees, even without being completely satisfied with the questions. But only if the species is very meaningful to me, and I've been thwarted in my effort to find a better specimen of it elsewhere.
One great book that helped me early on was Basic Bonsai Design by David DeGroot... totally changed my experiance when I read it, and I still try and gift it to as many newer learners as I can. Because it really teaches some fundamental (albeit Japanese in flavor) things in a straight forward way about design and material selection.
But nothing on earth beats having a mentor. I had several in the begining, on-line mostly. I would call Ron Martin (rest his soul) when I was at nurseries, and he would coach me through my choices even when he couldn't see them, because he would ask me those questions... and not let me be distracted by my enthusiasm. Then later, I got connected with Daniel Robinson. The teaching he has provided me has never waviered from his conviction that if you want to make great bonsai, you have to start with great material. Mediocrity is not something he'll let slip by without comment. Especially to one who works beside him. He insists on excellence, in trees and your work. He has ribbed me more than once over trees he would never consider. But I always tell him to leave me alone when he gives me a bad time, because I won't waiver in what I like either. He may think I'm nutz some times, but he always respects my convictions.
On an interesting note... the first year I worked with Daniel, I didn't buy one tree that year. Working on someone else's trees so totally ate up my time, I didn't even have time to consider acquiring more.
He likes to tell a theoretical story about a novice who goes to a convention and sees great bonsai, and he's all inspired and wants to learn... then he gets signed up for a local class and he kisses his wife goodbye on the day of the class and they all dream of the wonderful tree he must be bringing home that night. Then he goes... and is given a pencil in a pot juniper to put some wire on.. some instructions, and he's sent home. The wife... eager to see the tree, is disappointed by her husband's lackluster enthusiasum for showing the fruits of his labor. She sees the whip and says "That's not what the trees looked like at the show...??"... he mumbles "I know."... and the lil tree gets put out on the back deck and is forgotten and eventually dies. And the spark he had when he first saw a great bonsai tree dies with it.
The moral of the story is that if a newer learner is not given something with which to stoke the fire of their learning... then we have failed them as teachers. That man could of been the next great eagle in the art, but we'll never know. To Daniel's credit, some of the best trees I had early on were one's he gave me.
Does the student need a show tree to grab the spark and fan it to a flame? No... but will that be achieved with a pencil in a pot? Not likely. I do this art because I want to create great trees. I killed several trees in excess of the imaginary $150 mark in my first year or two... always my failures were about patience. But that was before I had intensive study with Daniel. Eric hasn't killed any... and that is because he started with two teachers right from the start. I gave him the maple... I bought it because when he saw it, it put a light in his eyes I still remember. I can tell you that at the time, I couldn't "afford" to get the tree... but I also couldn't afford not to. His passion, and how he would come to experiance the art was just to important to take a chance on.
And as a slightly uncomfortable, but true aside... if a bonsai enthusiast in your area passes away, generally someone will be trying to unload their trees... if you can find out where, or who... it's a sad but good way to get some great material. Several of the trees I have acquired over the years that are worth 4 times more than I paid for them were acquired in this way. My satsuki is one... and a great tree was saved from neglect.
I'm not sure any of this helps the discussion... but I hope so... or maybe it'll just give you something else to think about when pondering the potential of a tree in a can at your local nursery. The amount of money spent is nothing compared to being able to answer those questions. Unfortunately nurserymen are not idiots who hand out great trees for $20. But a great sale at the end of the season can often yeild nice material for half the cost. Lord knows.. there's nothing wrong with saving money.
Kindest regards,
Victrinia
Confidence in knowing what to buy, is indeed a skill gained in the practice. Which I think is why Eric suggested that the original poster (who has acquired several different trees at this point) start thinking beyond the usual nursery options. Buying trees with some guidence is always wise. But there are some critical considerations when purchasing trees that can help in a pinch...
Do I know anything about the species? (Will it back bud, what kind of growing conditions does it like.)
Does the tree have a good base? (If it doesn't, and you are new... think twice about buying it. If you can't see it... dig around in the pot with your fingers and try and figure it out. If there's nothing anywhere near the surface, you likely have a mess on your hands, and will have to be thinking of a plan to overcome that... again... it goes back to knowing the species.)
Does the tree have reasonable lower branching, or will the tree be able to produce some? Is it anywhere in reference to what is a good view of the base?
Does it have any reasonable trunk size relative to it's potential height? (Sorry... in bonsai... size matters. Always. I don't care if the tree is 3 inches tall or 30.)
Is the bark displaying any signs of maturity? (Many trees can take 7+ years to get any signs of mature bark. The asthetic mature bark lends is not something you can fake.)
How many years am I prepared to invest in it before I get to something I feel good about? (Even with material that costs $100+ you are going to have years on your hands if it's in nursery soil.)
If I can't get somewhat satisfying answers from all of that, I pass it by. That means I pass up almost everything in a garden nursery, and about 90% of all bonsai nursery material. This is neither good nor bad, it just means I know what I want. I know what styles I like. I like to mentally twist a tree into a proverbial pretzel in my mind and decide if it'll take it or not. Thinking beyond what is, to what can be, and will my return be worth the effort.
Needless to say I'm a big fan of collected material... and established trees. I've got some things in cans, but it's more weighted to the other. I've bought some trees, even without being completely satisfied with the questions. But only if the species is very meaningful to me, and I've been thwarted in my effort to find a better specimen of it elsewhere.
One great book that helped me early on was Basic Bonsai Design by David DeGroot... totally changed my experiance when I read it, and I still try and gift it to as many newer learners as I can. Because it really teaches some fundamental (albeit Japanese in flavor) things in a straight forward way about design and material selection.
But nothing on earth beats having a mentor. I had several in the begining, on-line mostly. I would call Ron Martin (rest his soul) when I was at nurseries, and he would coach me through my choices even when he couldn't see them, because he would ask me those questions... and not let me be distracted by my enthusiasm. Then later, I got connected with Daniel Robinson. The teaching he has provided me has never waviered from his conviction that if you want to make great bonsai, you have to start with great material. Mediocrity is not something he'll let slip by without comment. Especially to one who works beside him. He insists on excellence, in trees and your work. He has ribbed me more than once over trees he would never consider. But I always tell him to leave me alone when he gives me a bad time, because I won't waiver in what I like either. He may think I'm nutz some times, but he always respects my convictions.
On an interesting note... the first year I worked with Daniel, I didn't buy one tree that year. Working on someone else's trees so totally ate up my time, I didn't even have time to consider acquiring more.
He likes to tell a theoretical story about a novice who goes to a convention and sees great bonsai, and he's all inspired and wants to learn... then he gets signed up for a local class and he kisses his wife goodbye on the day of the class and they all dream of the wonderful tree he must be bringing home that night. Then he goes... and is given a pencil in a pot juniper to put some wire on.. some instructions, and he's sent home. The wife... eager to see the tree, is disappointed by her husband's lackluster enthusiasum for showing the fruits of his labor. She sees the whip and says "That's not what the trees looked like at the show...??"... he mumbles "I know."... and the lil tree gets put out on the back deck and is forgotten and eventually dies. And the spark he had when he first saw a great bonsai tree dies with it.
The moral of the story is that if a newer learner is not given something with which to stoke the fire of their learning... then we have failed them as teachers. That man could of been the next great eagle in the art, but we'll never know. To Daniel's credit, some of the best trees I had early on were one's he gave me.
Does the student need a show tree to grab the spark and fan it to a flame? No... but will that be achieved with a pencil in a pot? Not likely. I do this art because I want to create great trees. I killed several trees in excess of the imaginary $150 mark in my first year or two... always my failures were about patience. But that was before I had intensive study with Daniel. Eric hasn't killed any... and that is because he started with two teachers right from the start. I gave him the maple... I bought it because when he saw it, it put a light in his eyes I still remember. I can tell you that at the time, I couldn't "afford" to get the tree... but I also couldn't afford not to. His passion, and how he would come to experiance the art was just to important to take a chance on.
And as a slightly uncomfortable, but true aside... if a bonsai enthusiast in your area passes away, generally someone will be trying to unload their trees... if you can find out where, or who... it's a sad but good way to get some great material. Several of the trees I have acquired over the years that are worth 4 times more than I paid for them were acquired in this way. My satsuki is one... and a great tree was saved from neglect.
I'm not sure any of this helps the discussion... but I hope so... or maybe it'll just give you something else to think about when pondering the potential of a tree in a can at your local nursery. The amount of money spent is nothing compared to being able to answer those questions. Unfortunately nurserymen are not idiots who hand out great trees for $20. But a great sale at the end of the season can often yeild nice material for half the cost. Lord knows.. there's nothing wrong with saving money.
Kindest regards,
Victrinia
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