My Maple.. again.. Acer P

[ConorDash]

Hello..

Some may remember the previous topic on this maple, it was quite long so I thought best to start a new.
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/sun-shade-requirements-of-acers.23886/

It's pretty much completely bare now, due to all the leaves dying and not even new growth, as shown in the pics is dying off nearly immediately.

It's currently kept in a spot that gets some sun for few hours in the morning then rest of the day it's shaded.
Our weather currently hasn't been hot, it's rather chilly. Not much rain, around 15-20 Celsius. We had a heat wave but it was a good 3-4 weeks ago now.
It's fertilised every 2 weeks with miracle grow, 24-6-18 (I think, roughly).
At the moment, due to weather, this and my Chinese elm haven't required watering for days.. like it could be a week before needing water.

Only other things to note is that is has a lot of surface roots, getting quite messy and the soil definitely feels more condensed and solid, if it were the right time, I'd repot it, it feels like it needs it. However, with the tiny amount of leaves it has on it, I'm not sure repotting would be good if I could.
I thought of using some sphag moss over the top of the soil to promote surface root growth but I don't know enough about it to know if it's useful or not at my current stage.

Anyone have any ideas as to what it needs to help it grow and live?!

 

[coh]

Growing season is rapidly winding down in the northern hemisphere. At this point, I think you just wait for spring and do a thorough repot. Take a careful look at the roots at that time. It looks like the tree has set buds for next year, so you should be OK. I'd give it as much sun as you can and be careful not to over water.

Not sure what is causing that leaf problem. I have a couple of maples that have similar issues.

 

[ajm55555]

Keep an eye at the buds this fall and winter. If they stay hydrated and do not dry out it's a very good sign the plant will recover.
I had similar burns on some leaves with just one day of letting my maple exposed to full sun and very high temperature. But not to this extent...
New leaves on some maples are very sensitive to the weather.
I agree with @coh suggestions. I wouldn't do anything right now.

 

[ConorDash]

Growing season is rapidly winding down in the northern hemisphere. At this point, I think you just wait for spring and do a thorough repot. Take a careful look at the roots at that time. It looks like the tree has set buds for next year, so you should be OK. I'd give it as much sun as you can and be careful not to over water.

Not sure what is causing that leaf problem. I have a couple of maples that have similar issues.

Thanks for the insight. I wouldnt do anything now any way, its too late in the year by my reckoning.
Yeah it does seem to have buds on it quite a bit.
Thanks for your insight.

Keep an eye at the buds this fall and winter. If they stay hydrated and do not dry out it's a very good sign the plant will recover.
I had similar burns on some leaves with just one day of letting my maple exposed to full sun and very high temperature. But not to this extent...
New leaves on some maples are very sensitive to the weather.
I agree with @coh suggestions. I wouldn't do anything right now.

How would you know if the buds are hydrated or dry?
Bear in mind Im in England, so if we get very good sun, its only a hot day in America, nothing more.
This problem wasnt just on new leaves, it was all that I had previously, then they are all died then new ones came through, which I thought were good but they all eventually died too.
We previously put it down to the fact it lived in a poly tunnel before coming to me, so the decrease in temperature and humidity when it lived with me, was a shocker for it.
But its been here 4 months now so I would have thought it'd be a bit more comfortable by now.
Thank you,

 

[ajm55555]

How would you know if the buds are hydrated or dry?
Bear in mind Im in England, so if we get very good sun, its only a hot day in America, nothing more.
This problem wasnt just on new leaves, it was all that I had previously, then they are all died then new ones came through, which I thought were good but they all eventually died too.
We previously put it down to the fact it lived in a poly tunnel before coming to me, so the decrease in temperature and humidity when it lived with me, was a shocker for it.
But its been here 4 months now so I would have thought it'd be a bit more comfortable by now.
Thank you,

If the surface is smooth and not wrinkly then they're fine The buds are small but you can tell the difference.

Bear in mind Im in England, so if we get very good sun, its only a hot day in America, nothing more.
This problem wasnt just on new leaves, it was all that I had previously, then they are all died then new ones came through, which I thought were good but they all eventually died too.
We previously put it down to the fact it lived in a poly tunnel before coming to me, so the decrease in temperature and humidity when it lived with me, was a shocker for it.
But its been here 4 months now so I would have thought it'd be a bit more comfortable by now.
Thank you,

I'm in Southern Germany, probably warmer than the UK but the sun can burn even if you don't feel it.
I also noticed the color of the new leaves. They're a bit pale. Were we in Spring I'd be worried but now it could just be a consequence of the season.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

In my opinion the older leaves are tired, fall off and have some signs of root issues (to wet). The newer leaves are there because of the late warm period this year, they show signs of a combination of dehydration (burnt tips) and root problems. Not really a big deal. Monitor closely not to overwater. The big swing in temps is not good for maples, in our climate this period is the most dangerous for the plants. It's important to have it in good free draining soil for next year. Place it out of the rain, full sun, out of the drying wind. If the soil stays soggy after sheltering and not watering it AND THE ROOTBALL IS FIRM you might take it out of the pot, do not remove any dirt. Place newspaper around it, replace it every day until it is not wet anymore. Next spring do a good repotting. Here the maples are still full of leaves.

 

[ConorDash]

If the surface is smooth and not wrinkly then they're fine The buds are small but you can tell the difference.


I'm in Southern Germany, probably warmer than the UK but the sun can burn even if you don't feel it.
I also noticed the color of the new leaves. They're a bit pale. Were we in Spring I'd be worried but now it could just be a consequence of the season.

Ok I will definitely look for that, thank you.
Yes, they have always been pale.. ever since I got it and they went from green to vericose looking (within a month of having it) and since then, nearly all leaves have been vericose and pale.

 

[ConorDash]

In my opinion the older leaves are tired, fall off and have some signs of root issues (to wet). The newer leaves are there because of the late warm period this year, they show signs of a combination of dehydration (burnt tips) and root problems. Not really a big deal. Monitor closely not to overwater. The big swing in temps is not good for maples, in our climate this period is the most dangerous for the plants. It's important to have it in good free draining soil for next year. Place it out of the rain, full sun, out of the drying wind. If the soil stays soggy after sheltering and not watering it AND THE ROOTBALL IS FIRM you might take it out of the pot, do not remove any dirt. Place newspaper around it, replace it every day until it is not wet anymore. Next spring do a good repotting. Here the maples are still full of leaves.

It was mentioned previously that it may be too wet. This was a month or so ago, so its possible those signs are still there.
I have been better in my watering after that, waiting for longer to water (using a chopstick for hydration in the soil). I am very eager to repot, getting a highly recommended and appropriate soil in early spring next year.
Where it currently is, I'd say is a good spot. Its mostly enclosed by large things either side of it. It gets sun in the morning but as the morning goes on, shade is passed on to it for the rest of the day.

It has been staying wet for a long period, like a week. But thats the same as my much smaller Chinese Elm, I thought it was just the weather and fact it had such little leaves that it was drawing upon much water.
Do you think the newspaper technique you mentioned, is necessary? I don't want to do anything stressful, if its best to just be left and monitored.
Thank you for your info, its very good to know

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

The newspaper is only when you have the impression that the soil is not drying out with proper protection. When leaves are gone, some winters i do only water twice between november and februari in a free draining mixture. The problem in this period is not getting fresh air to the roots.

 

[LanceMac10]

Once leaves burn up and/or fall off, the tree will not be taking up as much water. It's like defoliating a tree. When you use that technique, you reduce the amount you water and/or your frequency. Watering on the same schedule will lead to soggy soil. Perhaps your new growth has roots extending into soggy soil, causing your new leaves to blacken and shrivel. Trees at this point in the year grow some roots, as far as I know. These new roots might be too wet. You'll find most problems you end up having can be traced back to your watering habits. Bare root in spring at repot and make sure to cut the roots back to live roots and wire it in properly. Then add the rest of your good soil and gently use a chopstick to work the soil in amongst the roots.

Good luck!

 

[ConorDash]

Once leaves burn up and/or fall off, the tree will not be taking up as much water. It's like defoliating a tree. When you use that technique, you reduce the amount you water and/or your frequency. Watering on the same schedule will lead to soggy soil. Perhaps your new growth has roots extending into soggy soil, causing your new leaves to blacken and shrivel. Trees at this point in the year grow some roots, as far as I know. These new roots might be too wet. You'll find most problems you end up having can be traced back to your watering habits. Bare root in spring at repot and make sure to cut the roots back to live roots and wire it in properly. Then add the rest of your good soil and gently use a chopstick to work the soil in amongst the roots.

Good luck!

Thanks Lance. Yes I've watched many repotting and techniques used, using the chopstick LOADS to get rid of air pockets. People actually sometimes dont wire the tree in the pot, because using the stick can secure the tree enough to not need wire.
But I would use wire too, I like it. Gives me a sense of security in it.
Im looking forward to repotting, as it has been in the pot for 2 years, next spring.
Is there no use in putting moss on top of the soil? To help those surface roots?
I dont water on a schedule. Every morning and evening, i look at the soil, check the chopstick thats left in always. I wait till the chopstick is very dry, barely in moisture at all, then water.

 

[LanceMac10]

Is this in a large, nursery type container? If so, the chopstick probably isn't giving you an accurate view of how much water the container is holding. A lot of the roots growing now will be the from the ends of the long circling roots at the bottom. This hasn't been repotted in awhile, I figure, so there will be lots of circling roots down there. I believe this is causing your new growth to perish prematurely.

Always wire your tree in, always!
Moss is ok, I guess. The problem is, the roots grow up into something like sphagnum. Sure, you get some surface roots to develop, but they are pretty fragile, and too close to the surface.
The green moss is for shows, it interferes with moisture assessment.

 

[coh]

It was mentioned previously that it may be too wet. This was a month or so ago, so its possible those signs are still there.

If the roots were damaged by it being too wet at some point (which is quite possible), it may take them a while to regrow and get healthy again. That might not really happen until you get it repotted in the spring. So I'm not really surprised that the leaves are still showing effects. If you repot into better soil in the spring and experience the same thing next summer, then you have to look for another cause. If you can rule out both over and under watering, then you look at exposure, water quality, fertilizer, maybe even consider fungal issues.

 

[ConorDash]

Is this in a large, nursery type container? If so, the chopstick probably isn't giving you an accurate view of how much water the container is holding. A lot of the roots growing now will be the from the ends of the long circling roots at the bottom. This hasn't been repotted in awhile, I figure, so there will be lots of circling roots down there. I believe this is causing your new growth to perish prematurely.

Always wire your tree in, always!
Moss is ok, I guess. The problem is, the roots grow up into something like sphagnum. Sure, you get some surface roots to develop, but they are pretty fragile, and too close to the surface.
The green moss is for shows, it interferes with moisture assessment.

No, the pot is not particular deep, not a growing pot. I think the chopstick is getting really in to the soil. I worry sometimes as the more it's pushed in, the more chance the roots are damaged by it but it's in a good amount.
Here's a pic to show the pot, back when it still had leaves!



I thought that keeping the surface roots healthier, even if they are cut when removing the moss, it'd benefit the trees development?

 

[ConorDash]

If the roots were damaged by it being too wet at some point (which is quite possible), it may take them a while to regrow and get healthy again. That might not really happen until you get it repotted in the spring. So I'm not really surprised that the leaves are still showing effects. If you repot into better soil in the spring and experience the same thing next summer, then you have to look for another cause. If you can rule out both over and under watering, then you look at exposure, water quality, fertilizer, maybe even consider fungal issues.

I'm hoping it's the issue that we know about. I know that the tree wil bounce back once I get the conditions all sorted out, I'm looking forward to when it has a nice big full canopy of green. It's the thought that's keep me going with it. That and of course looking at Mach5's trees... but what Bonsau Nut Maple enthusiast can say they don't look at Mach for inspiration lol.

 

[rodeolthr]

Did anyone ask about soil ph in your previous post? It seems that much of the UK has extremely chalky soil, and this may also shows itself in the local water supply. As you probably know, many acers are not fond of high ph (alkaline) levels. The pale leaves could be related to this factor.....as well as excessive moisture. Here in Seattle, I use a mix of 3 parts perlite to 1 part soil-less potting mix to ensure that my acer palmatum stay "dry" through the winter.

 

[sorce]

pushed in,

I am over the fact that you don't have to water for a weekish.

The new buds do look strong enough for next year.

Make sure to take pics of the roots and that soil next spring.....I gotta know what the F is going on in there!

Sorce

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The last photo, shows a lot of tree, a lot of leaves in a relatively small pot. With maples you want an "evenly moist" environment. You may be alternating between too wet and too dry. Not watering until chop stick is bone dry is too dry for a maple. Your problem could be underwatering rather than over watering. But I can't "see" your cycle of watering and frequency of rain over the internet, so use your judgement.

Another possibility. You mentioned fertilizing every 2 weeks, if the newest leaves and twigs are the ones being affected the most, it is possible you are over-fertilizing. Reduce the concentration of your fertilizer, but don't change the frequency. And for the winter you should really just stop fertilizing.

Leaf damage from allowing plant to dry out too hard between watering and leaf damage from excess fertilizer can be similar enough that it is difficult to tell from photos. Think about your fertilizer concentration, if it is more dilute than the directions on the container, then letting get too dry between watering is more likely the problem.

In my part of the USA the layer of moss is put on maples and azalea sometime in late spring to protect and encourage surface roots. The layer of moss is then removed late summer or early autumn after weather has gotten cooler with more frequent rain. It is not left on year round. I don't know what is normally done in England, but I suspect the pattern is similar. About now would be time to remove the moss.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Here (Belgium)sphagnum small layer after repot till after summer. No other moss except for exhibition. In good growing medium too much water is difficult for maples. Might be different causes.

 

[ConorDash]

Did anyone ask about soil ph in your previous post? It seems that much of the UK has extremely chalky soil, and this may also shows itself in the local water supply. As you probably know, many acers are not fond of high ph (alkaline) levels. The pale leaves could be related to this factor.....as well as excessive moisture. Here in Seattle, I use a mix of 3 parts perlite to 1 part soil-less potting mix to ensure that my acer palmatum stay "dry" through the winter.

I believe it was brought up. At the time I was using only rain water to water it, now I have switched to tap water due to not being able to keep up with rain water collection. I spoke to a good few before changing, and made that decision I don't know much else in terms of if that could be causing an issue or not... I simply don't know enough on the subject to make changes to it :/.
Thank you for the post.