My Japanese black pine has light green needles so do I need to change the soil?

[Josephflores960]

My Japanese black pine seems to be a lot lighter than the usual dark green I see on other JBP’s. I did come with a compact soil and I put in a perlite, orchid bark, and some coco coir soil mix and it seems that substrate dries out way faster than the soil it originally came in. Do I go back and take off some of the soil from the rootball and just put it in pure lava rock or a mix of akadama, lava rock, and pumice? Thank you.
I live in south Texas with the temperatures right now being in the 70’s.

 

[Paradox]

The bud looks good.

Looks a little like chlorosis or iron deficiency. Try adding some chelated iron to the water when you water it and make sure to water when it needs it. Won't turn back bright green right away. Will probably take a couple of months

Put a wooden chopstick in the pot and leave it there. Pull it out once a day and look at it. Water the tree when it is almost dry but not totally dry.

 

[Josephflores960]

The bud looks good.

Looks a little like chlorosis or iron deficiency. Try adding some chelated iron to the water when you water it and make sure to water when it needs it. Won't turn back bright green right away. Will probably take a couple of months

Put a wooden chopstick in the pot and leave it there. Pull it out once a day and look at it. Water the tree when it is almost dry but not totally dry.

I’m confused because the soil it originally came with stays very post for longer periods of time than the soil I added around it, so I’m confused whether I need to get rid of some of the soil it came with.

 

[Paradox]

I’m confused because the soil it originally came with stays very post for longer periods of time than the soil I added around it, so I’m confused whether I need to get rid of some of the soil it came with.

Not sure I would want to change it. Because your summer time temperatures are going to be very hot and will be brutal for a tree in very free draining mix.

@markyscott
Used to live in Texas
He can probably give you the best advice
Hopefully he will see the @

Generally we don't like to just add a different soil type around a root/soil mass as you describe because of the different drainage characteristics. I am just not sure that going to a completely free draining mix will be the best idea for these little guys yet given your climate

 

[Adamski77]

I got mine couple of years ago in similar status… repotted that spring into akadama/kiryu/lava plus organic fertilizer and problem went away within few months. If you can water every day I suggest repotting into above mix… Shanghai summer is a killer too and this tree doesn’t have problems.
Agree with @Paradox … mixing soils is not the best idea.

 

[cmeg1]

Mineral deficiency………magnesium…..iron.

It can only be a ph issue…that is the only reason mineral is not available……5.5-6.5

The other possibility could be water quality……tap water with high ec and chlorine can clog plant roots ion uptake channels…….too much mineral salts since the water ec and also fertilizer now too can actually be an overfeeding…….it is great for finishing off fruits and vegetables to constrict water uptake and increase terpines and oils,but for a growing hardy tree I find it absolutely unnessasary. And is uneeded stress and can yellow the plant……..lower mineral salt ion and more water is always best.

 

[Shibui]

There's a whole host of reasons a pine might be pale.
The first I would try in Nitrogen. Try fertilizer. It may be slow to respond in winter but a few doses of liquid fert may help. The previous owner may have neglected fert for a while before it was sold. I suspect your new soil has no added fert and you probably have not fertilized since you got it? My pines often go pale, especially through winter. Fert usually fixes the problem pretty quick. N deficiency is far more common in potted plants than Iron or Mg deficiency an most commercial fert will have trace elements anyway.

Agree that slip potting so you have poor soil ball inside a new soil mix is not a good move. Water does not move easily between 2 different soils so the inner soil can stay wet or can get really dry while water just runs through the new soil. I would probably baby it through winter and do a proper repot in late winter or spring. If you don't expect temps much below freezing through winter you could even repot now.

 

[Josephflores960]

I got mine couple of years ago in similar status… repotted that spring into akadama/kiryu/lava plus organic fertilizer and problem went away within few months. If you can water every day I suggest repotting into above mix… Shanghai summer is a killer too and this tree doesn’t have problems.
Agree with @Paradox … mixing soils is not the best idea.

So would I just get rid of half of the old soil with a chopstick and then replace with that soil mix you mentioned?

 

[Josephflores960]

There's a whole host of reasons a pine might be pale.
The first I would try in Nitrogen. Try fertilizer. It may be slow to respond in winter but a few doses of liquid fert may help. The previous owner may have neglected fert for a while before it was sold. I suspect your new soil has no added fert and you probably have not fertilized since you got it? My pines often go pale, especially through winter. Fert usually fixes the problem pretty quick. N deficiency is far more common in potted plants than Iron or Mg deficiency an most commercial fert will have trace elements anyway.

Agree that slip potting so you have poor soil ball inside a new soil mix is not a good move. Water does not move easily between 2 different soils so the inner soil can stay wet or can get really dry while water just runs through the new soil. I would probably baby it through winter and do a proper repot in late winter or spring. If you don't expect temps much below freezing through winter you could even repot now.

I see, yes, I have not applied any fertilizer since I got this tree almost two months ago and the tree arrived looking the same pale green. My temperature today is 85 and usually will stay above 55 for awhile, would you recommend I mess with the root ball/soil now or just wait? Thank you.

 

[River's Edge]

Please clear up one aspect for me. Have you done any root work since the tree arrived?

 

[Josephflores960]

Please clear up one aspect for me. Have you done any root work since the tree arrived?

No I haven’t done any root work, I did try to loosen up the compact moist rootball when it arrived but I didn’t do much (pretty much nothing) cause it was compact and damp so I let it be.

 

[River's Edge]

I suggest you allow the central core to dry out a bit for a day or two, then proceed with 1/2 HBR. When the tree is out of the pot and you are examining the central core ( old soil compacted root ball ) choose the side that appears to have the fewest roots. Slowly tease out the roots and remove the compacted soil on that half and replace with a bonsai soil mix. Cut only the longest strongest roots and keep as many smaller roots as possible. Also tease out the roots on the surface of the other side lightly to assist them growing into the new substrate around the outside. But do not cut those roots. Preferably inorganic primarily, with even particle size and some organic, fir bark for example to add extra moisture retention for your climate. If you have availability of these components I would use them. Pumice, Lava, Akadama, Fir Bark. After the repot I would refrain from fertilizing for three to four weeks to give the cut roots some recovery time. Use light levels of fertilizer to begin with.
The lighter coloured needles are likely the result of a soil mix that stays too wet for too long. Pines like dry feet.
Next repot you can do the other half of the compacted root ball.

 

[MaciekA]

Please clear up one aspect for me. Have you done any root work since the tree arrived?

I think another relevant thing to note here is that the rootball is described as compact and moist but the tree has been slip potted into very loose substrate.

 

[Josephflores960]

I suggest you allow the central core to dry out a bit for a day or two, then proceed with 1/2 HBR. When the tree is out of the pot and you are examining the central core ( old soil compacted root ball ) choose the side that appears to have the fewest roots. Slowly tease out the roots and remove the compacted soil on that half and replace with a bonsai soil mix. Cut only the longest strongest roots and keep as many smaller roots as possible. Also tease out the roots on the surface of the other side lightly to assist them growing into the new substrate around the outside. But do not cut those roots. Preferably inorganic primarily, with even particle size and some organic, fir bark for example to add extra moisture retention for your climate. If you have availability of these components I would use them. Pumice, Lava, Akadama, Fir Bark. After the repot I would refrain from fertilizing for three to four weeks to give the cut roots some recovery time. Use light levels of fertilizer to begin with.
The lighter coloured needles are likely the result of a soil mix that stays too wet for too long. Pines like dry feet.
Next repot you can do the other half of the compacted root ball.

I do have those soil types already (akadama, lava rock, and pumice) except for the bark. Would I use a chopstick or something else to loosen up the roots? Lastly, after those weeks since the repotting would you prefer I use a liquid or granular fertilizer? I have BioGold fertilizer and another 9-4-5 liquid fertilizer. Thank you.

 

[River's Edge]

I do have those soil types already (akadama, lava rock, and pumice) except for the bark. Would I use a chopstick or something else to loosen up the roots? Lastly, after those weeks since the repotting would you prefer I use a liquid or granular fertilizer? I have BioGold fertilizer and another 9-4-5 liquid fertilizer. Thank you.

Personally I prefer a chopstick, the wood is gentler on the roots than a metal root hook. I prefer to work slowly and carefully, with a root hook the tendency is to pull and dig. The type of fertilizer you use will not be recognized by the plant, so the preference is yours. I personally prefer low numbers and organic so would use the Bio Gold if available. When using an organic remember to allow time and create the proper conditions for it to decompose into useable elements. So apply a week or two before you wish the fertilizer to be available to the plant. Also in your climate remember that it needs to remain damp for decomposition so the method of application ( tea bag, fertilizer cup, or sub soil must be considered to be most effective.)

 

[Srt8madness]

I suggest you allow the central core to dry out a bit for a day or two, then proceed with 1/2 HBR. When the tree is out of the pot and you are examining the central core ( old soil compacted root ball ) choose the side that appears to have the fewest roots. Slowly tease out the roots and remove the compacted soil on that half and replace with a bonsai soil mix. Cut only the longest strongest roots and keep as many smaller roots as possible. Also tease out the roots on the surface of the other side lightly to assist them growing into the new substrate around the outside. But do not cut those roots. Preferably inorganic primarily, with even particle size and some organic, fir bark for example to add extra moisture retention for your climate. If you have availability of these components I would use them. Pumice, Lava, Akadama, Fir Bark. After the repot I would refrain from fertilizing for three to four weeks to give the cut roots some recovery time. Use light levels of fertilizer to begin with.
The lighter coloured needles are likely the result of a soil mix that stays too wet for too long. Pines like dry feet.
Next repot you can do the other half of the compacted root ball.

HBR for a little seedling?

 

[Adamski77]

So would I just get rid of half of the old soil with a chopstick and then replace with that soil mix you mentioned

I have a little bit different approach especially that your tree is extremely young... I would just leave the core (shin) intact... this is part of soil directly under the trunk base... tease out the rest as mentioned by @River's Edge... add new soil and use chopstick to gently move it in between the fine roots. I'm a big supporter of organic fertilizers so that's what I would do... not really sure about strong, liquid fertilizer so my advise would be misleading.

 

[River's Edge]

HBR for a little seedling?

Valid point, Not sure of the age what would your guess be?
One might consider the age of the seedling ( ?) with wet soil not drying out, wired and bent recently with one bud! Appears weak and is potted in way too big particle mix outside of wet soil.
At that age it will likely survive, can't really tell what the roots look like from this distance.

 

[jevanlewis]

Valid point, Not sure of the age what would your guess be?
One might consider the age of the seedling ( ?) with wet soil not drying out, wired and bent recently with one bud! Appears weak and is potted in way too big particle mix outside of wet soil.
At that age it will likely survive, can't really tell what the roots look like from this distance.

I think both @River's Edge and @Adamski77 suggestions could be the right approach, depending primarily on the current root mass. If roots aren't full and healthy, do a HBR as Frank suggests. On the other hand, if the pot is pretty full of healthy roots, you probably can aggressively work the whole root mass, closer to what Adamski77 is suggested. However, given the paler color of the needles, if there are any concerns about health, HBR is still probably the safest. You can repot this tree again a year later to do the other half, and so you won't lose much time by doing it in two stages.

@Josephflores960 I am still not 100% clear on what root work has been done. You said you didn't do any root work except to loosen the soil with a chopstick (if you did this, could you explain what exactly you did? Did you lift it out of the pot, loosen, and then place back in the pot?). Also, you said that you put it in perlite, orchid bark, and some coco coir soil, which sounds like you might have just slip potted into this other mix. Could you confirm with more detail exactly what you did from a roots and soil perspective?

 

[Srt8madness]

Valid point, Not sure of the age what would your guess be?
One might consider the age of the seedling ( ?) with wet soil not drying out, wired and bent recently with one bud! Appears weak and is potted in way too big particle mix outside of wet soil.
At that age it will likely survive, can't really tell what the roots look like from this distance.

My guess would be two years grown in a small container (My last crop were close to this size at 12-14 months). I certainly don't claim to know any better; I was under the impression JBP could be more or less bare rooted till 3, maybe 4 years old (like when doing ROR). My comment was made on the fly, I wondered why the extra caution for a young plant, your explanation regarding health and wire application make sense, thank you.