Modified HBR for yamadori collecting?

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

Does anyone here have experience with using the HBR method on a yamadori to improve the chances of success? I came across this nice little Western Juniper that I would like to collect but as usual around these parts there is no rootball to speak of in the sandy soil.

I dug around the base and found that the soil is only about 6 inches deep, there is at least one thumb sized root running along the bedrock out to one side but there could also be roots going down into cracks--I didn't want to disturb it too much. There are some smaller roots close to the trunk, as you can see in the 2nd picture. There are also a lot of fine roots, but it is unclear to me if those are from the tree or from the (minimal) ground cover.

I know that the general advice is to look for trees growing in pockets where you can easily extract most of the roots, but I am not finding that around here. The bedrock is too easily broken. Yes, I have looked at thousands of trees over the past couple of years and only once did I find something close to that scenario.

Would it improve my chances of success if I add bonsai soil to the one side that I dug yesterday?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I am down for an experiment--this area is BLM (I have a permit) and I go there often to walk my dog off-leash.

On a related note, a friend randomly dropped off 10 bags of coco-perlite mix and asked if I could use it for bonsai. I am assuming not, but wondered if anyone else has used it and how.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Hmmm I would not even dig in sand. I've tried it, it never ended well.
Backfilling it with bonsai soil will create a dry pocket. Instead, I would use that coco coir perlite mix you have. Which is also prime material for seedlings and cuttings.
It's more dense and spongy, meaning it will hold water better in that sandy environment. If you backfill one side now, and the other side next year or 2026, you should be able to see whether or not it made new roots in 2027 and lift it out then if this all worked.

But again, sand is bad news. I skip over those areas and not even look at plants there to prevent myself from digging. I want to suggest you do the same and instead look near the forest edge where there's a lot of leaf litter.

 

[Hartinez]

In agreeance with @Wires_Guy_wires . Collecting conifers from sandy sites has never worked out for me either.

 

[River's Edge]

I dug around the base and found that the soil is only about 6 inches deep, there is at least one thumb sized root running along the bedrock out to one side but there could also be roots going down into cracks

if the soil is that shallow the roots will have run in many directions for some length. Not likely a compact root ball. Simple test is to see if the tree moves by hand when pushed. If it is firmly anchored, difficult to shift, you can safely assume it has some deeper anchor roots in cracks, likely seeking moisture below the surface soil for survival. in that case I would not attempt collection.
The coco perlite mix can be useful for propagation and young developing plants, limited use for more advanced development and trees in refinement.

 

[NaoTK]

Does anyone here have experience with using the HBR method on a yamadori to improve the chances of success? I came across this nice little Western Juniper that I would like to collect but as usual around these parts there is no rootball to speak of in the sandy soil.

I dug around the base and found that the soil is only about 6 inches deep, there is at least one thumb sized root running along the bedrock out to one side but there could also be roots going down into cracks--I didn't want to disturb it too much. There are some smaller roots close to the trunk, as you can see in the 2nd picture. There are also a lot of fine roots, but it is unclear to me if those are from the tree or from the (minimal) ground cover.

I know that the general advice is to look for trees growing in pockets where you can easily extract most of the roots, but I am not finding that around here. The bedrock is too easily broken. Yes, I have looked at thousands of trees over the past couple of years and only once did I find something close to that scenario.

Would it improve my chances of success if I add bonsai soil to the one side that I dug yesterday?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I am down for an experiment--this area is BLM (I have a permit) and I go there often to walk my dog off-leash.

On a related note, a friend randomly dropped off 10 bags of coco-perlite mix and asked if I could use it for bonsai. I am assuming not, but wondered if anyone else has used it and how.

I know this exact area well. I have not succeeded in collecting the junipers there, as everyone says the roots are just too few. Collecting the sage is easy however. I have had more luck collecting juniper in shaded areas under ponderosa with more soil duff.

RIP 2017, I tried to keep the sandy soil around the base but it didn't work. I don't know that removing all the soil would have helped either



RIP 2019

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

Hmmm I would not even dig in sand. I've tried it, it never ended well.

But again, sand is bad news. I skip over those areas and not even look at plants there to prevent myself from digging.

I know...there are just too many good looking trees that are growing in sandy soil around here. That is why I posted, to see if there is a known method to help develop a rootball before collection. Surely it can be done, with a little patience.

Backfilling it with bonsai soil will create a dry pocket. Instead, I would use that coco coir perlite mix you have. Which is also prime material for seedlings and cuttings.
It's more dense and spongy, meaning it will hold water better in that sandy environment. If you backfill one side now, and the other side next year or 2026, you should be able to see whether or not it made new roots in 2027 and lift it out then if this all worked.

This is what I am going to try, the coco-perlite on one side to see what happens.

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

In agreeance with @Wires_Guy_wires . Collecting conifers from sandy sites has never worked out for me either.

Agreed, but have you tried what I am asking about? Unless I hear from someone who has tried and failed at this, it seems like an experiment worth doing. Who knows, maybe it will be a viable technique.

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

if the soil is that shallow the roots will have run in many directions for some length. Not likely a compact root ball. Simple test is to see if the tree moves by hand when pushed. If it is firmly anchored, difficult to shift, you can safely assume it has some deeper anchor roots in cracks, likely seeking moisture below the surface soil for survival. in that case I would not attempt collection.

Yes, I agree that the roots are currently running all over the place, and likely dive down into cracks nearby--but the tree itself is not solidly held in place by a deep taproot directly under the trunk like I find with lots of junipers around here.

The coco perlite mix can be useful for propagation and young developing plants, limited use for more advanced development and trees in refinement.

Are you saying that you do not think the coco-perlite is useful in this scenario? I could mix it with pumice or other substrates, if that would be beneficial.

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

I know this exact area well. I have not succeeded in collecting the junipers there, as everyone says the roots are just too few. Collecting the sage is easy however. I have had more luck collecting juniper in shaded areas under ponderosa with more soil duff.

RIP 2017, I tried to keep the sandy soil around the base but it didn't work. I don't know that removing all the soil would have helped either

All the more reason for me to perform some experiments and see if I can improve the possibilities for collecting in this geographical region.

Thanks for the suggestions--would love to hear more about collecting sage--I have a couple that seems to be doing fine after collection this past spring.

 

[Mike Westervelt]

I think if the tree in question is close enough for you to water semi regularly and you sever one large root at a time close to the trunk and backfill
with moisture retentive soil you may get some fine roots closer in, but it could take a while.
Disclaimer: I have not tried this, but there are anecdotes about Dan Robinson enhancing soil and watering before eventual collection.

 

[Hartinez]

Agreed, but have you tried what I am asking about? Unless I hear from someone who has tried and failed at this, it seems like an experiment worth doing. Who knows, maybe it will be a viable technique.

I have. Sort of. Maybe not exactly an “HBR”, but some flavor of that for sure. It Didn’t work, or at least not that I could tangibly notice in one season.

Maybe it was because I couldn’t get back to it and water the different substrates I place around the base. maybe it was because the sandy soil. Maybe the soil I used wasn’t right. I’ve used sphag moss, potting soil and pumice. Maybe I didn’t wait long enough for roots to develop.

If you’re close enough and can water the tree often, then maybe you’ll have success. Have at it.

I think ultimately the decision was to focus on the trees and locations that gave me the best possible opportunity to keep the tree alive with great success.

 

[Hartinez]

I think if the tree in question is close enough for you to water semi regularly and you sever one large root at a time close to the trunk and backfill
with moisture retentive soil you may get some fine roots closer in, but it could take a while.
Disclaimer: I have not tried this, but there are anecdotes about Dan Robinson enhancing soil and watering before eventual collection.

I’ve heard this also from collectors in Michigan. I think the biggest difference is location. The PNW and Michigan get far more moisture and have much more moisture in the soils so I think it’s a much more doable process if you can’t get back to the tree frequently.

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

I’ve heard this also from collectors in Michigan. I think the biggest difference is location. The PNW and Michigan get far more moisture and have much more moisture in the soils so I think it’s a much more doable process if you can’t get back to the tree frequently.

Well, I am in the high desert of Oregon at 3500 ft, not the valley or coast so my climate is probably more akin to yours, but point taken. Luckily this area is a 10 minute drive and I walk the dog there fairly often so I can water it when we have a dry spell.

 

[River's Edge]

Yes, I agree that the roots are currently running all over the place, and likely dive down into cracks nearby--but the tree itself is not solidly held in place by a deep taproot directly under the trunk like I find with lots of junipers around here.




Are you saying that you do not think the coco-perlite is useful in this scenario? I could mix it with pumice or other substrates, if that would be beneficial.

If you have pumice I would use it rather than anything else! Biut, I would not collect the juniper under the circumstances you describe. Weak junipers are very touchy about root work, the tree is stressed in that environment without any disturbance and there is no evidence of substantial root support.

 

[_#1_]

Question, if almost the entire if not the entire supporting root system are somewhere far out there, why do half ground layer? Why not try a proper ground layer?

I mean pseudo ground layer since tree would not be girdle...

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

Question, if almost the entire if not the entire supporting root system are somewhere far out there, why do half ground layer? Why not try a proper ground layer?

I mean pseudo ground layer since tree would not be girdle...

Mostly because I don't know where the roots are or go--I only dug a bit so as to disturb them as little as possible.