Miracle Gro

Andrew Robson

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Cakes, Slow release pellets and such offer you little control of the contents...
Liquid fertilizer can be mixed to precision and applied as you please.

Actually most bonsai professionals would disagree with you. Assuming we are using volcanic soils (pumice, lava, akadama) the benefits of cakes is that once you want to stop fertilizing, you simply take the cake off, like after black Pine decandling. Furthermore, you can really fine tune your fertilizing precisely to the trees needs, which is really what bonsai is about. Therefore cakes offer you the most control of all fertilizers.

Unless you want to mix a different batch of liquid fertilizer for every tree you fertilize, you won't be fertilizing your trees correctly with a blanket dosage for all your trees... Also, have you done soil analysis to test which liquids hold in the soil? And, are you using an organic substrate in your soil? Organic material will hold liquid fertilizer for much longer, and certain liquid fertilizers stay in the pot longer regardless of substrate, like fish. Dyna Grow gets used by the plant and washed out quite rapidly. There are much more uncontrollable variables with liquid fertilizer.

Going back to volcanic soils, one of the many reasons professionals and serious hobbyists like them so much is because you can really pinpoint your fertilizing. Want to stop fertilizing black Pine after decandling? Simply take off the cake, water your tree, and most of the fertilizer will be gone. This is how we do bonsai, we are extremely picky about most things and the more we can accurately pinpoint things like fertilizing, the better the results.
 
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Simply take off the cake, water your tree, and most of the fertilizer will be gone.
This is true regardless of the nutrient source. How long a soil holds nutrients is a function of the cec and water holding capacity not the nutrient source. I'm not arguing for any particular fertility regime but the way the plants take up nutrients and the way those nutrients behave in the soil is pretty well understood. I do see how a solid formulation would make it easier to adjust to each trees needs. The same thing could be accomplished by simply applying less or more of your miracle grow solution to each plant, after watering. If you simply water with a fertilizer solution then you are correct, you can't tailor to each tree.
 

AZbonsai

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It's like watering your trees with a wand because you think the trees think it is raining.
 

Anthony

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Ha ha ask what the fertiliser is supposed to ----------- trunk thicken or refine or maintain
Good Day
Anthony

Not up to date but -------

20 N 20 P and 20 K is ---------- 20 N ----------- 20 x .08 P ------------- 20 x ,04 K
or is it the ,08 goes to the K ?
 

milehigh_7

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It's like watering your trees with a wand because you think the trees think it is raining.

Depending on the head you use there is something to this based on the Oxygen mixed in. For example, the Dramm heads are designed to oxygenate the water and this does make a difference.
 

GrimLore

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Unless you want to mix a different batch of liquid fertilizer for every tree you fertilize, you won't be fertilizing your trees correctly with a blanket dosage for all your trees... Also, have you done soil analysis to test which liquids hold in the soil? And, are you using an organic substrate in your soil? Organic material will hold liquid fertilizer for much longer, and certain liquid fertilizers stay in the pot longer regardless of substrate, like fish. Dyna Grow gets used by the plant and washed out quite rapidly. There are much more uncontrollable variables with liquid fertilizer.

My substrate varies with the plants need not mine and as an adept grower I am able to determine what amounts of fertilizer based on the substrate from EXPERIENCE - not books... I still firmly attest that soluble given a bit of practice and years of experience supersedes your "canned box" opinion, no matter who your mentor is...
By the way - I like your posts and read them but I find it a bit offensive as most of yours are implying I am not a professional so to bring it down to "your level" f*@k off :rolleyes: You have proven many times over and over it is your way or no way... Based on teachings not experience and the way that it pays off knowing and understanding different climates - basically a noob with a Violin and a gay partner, maybe even a Mentor.

Edit : Bring it, anytime, anywhere - I will PM you my addy ;)

Grimmy
 

milehigh_7

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My substrate varies with the plants need not mine and as an adept grower I am able to determine what amounts of fertilizer based on the substrate from EXPERIENCE - not books... I still firmly attest that soluble given a bit of practice and years of experience supersedes your "canned box" opinion, no matter who your mentor is...
By the way - I like your posts and read them but I find it a bit offensive as most of yours are implying I am not a professional so to bring it down to "your level" f*@k off :rolleyes: You have proven many times over and over it is your way or no way... Based on teachings not experience and the way that it pays off knowing and understanding different climates - basically a noob with a Violin and a gay partner, maybe even a Mentor.

Edit : Bring it, anytime, anywhere - I will PM you my addy ;)

Grimmy

SHOTS FIRED! LOL!!!

giphy.gif


He does come off a bit cocky...
 

AZbonsai

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Depending on the head you use there is something to this based on the Oxygen mixed in. For example, the Dramm heads are designed to oxygenate the water and this does make a difference.
Ok, I will give you that, but you don't think your trees think it's raining do you? :):):):)...that is a rhetorical question :)
 
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Ha ha ask what the fertiliser is supposed to ----------- trunk thicken or refine or maintain
Good Day
Anthony

Not up to date but -------

20 N 20 P and 20 K is ---------- 20 N ----------- 20 x .08 P ------------- 20 x ,04 K
or is it the ,08 goes to the K ?
I have no idea what this means, but in the states a 19-19-19, the richest balanced ratio I am aware of is 19% plant available nitrogen, 19% plant available phosphorous and 19% plant available potassium. Those nutrients may be derived from different sources but there is no conversion factor needed to calculate what is available to the plant.
 
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Ha ha ask what the fertiliser is supposed to ----------- trunk thicken or refine or maintain
Good Day
Anthony

Not up to date but -------

20 N 20 P and 20 K is ---------- 20 N ----------- 20 x .08 P ------------- 20 x ,04 K
or is it the ,08 goes to the K ?
I have no idea what this means, but in the states a 19-19-19, the richest balanced ratio I am aware of is 19% plant available nitrogen, 19% plant available phosphorous and 19% plant available potassium. Those nutrients may be derived from different sources but there is no conversion factor needed to calculate what is available to the plant.
 
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I have no idea what this means, but in the states a 19-19-19, the richest balanced ratio I am aware of is 19% plant available nitrogen, 19% plant available phosphorous and 19% plant available potassium. Those nutrients may be derived from different sources but there is no conversion factor needed to calculate what is available to the plant.

NPK ratios are just reduced molar ratios.

Phosphorus has a greater molecular weight than Nitrogen, so 20-20-20 would have more Phosphorus by weight.

NPK needs can be derived from dry weight of the plant, and would vary by species and type.
 

MichaelS

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Ha ha ask what the fertiliser is supposed to ----------- trunk thicken or refine or maintain
Good Day
Anthony

Not up to date but -------

20 N 20 P and 20 K is ---------- 20 N ----------- 20 x .08 P ------------- 20 x ,04 K
or is it the ,08 goes to the K ?
Anthony,
The 30 30 30 or 10 10 10 or 30 10 20 archaic American system does not reflect the amount of the element you are applying. For example. If you take a 20 20 20, It describes the ''percentage of phosphoric acid P2O4'' and the ''percentage of potash - K2O. In reality, when you pour on such a fertilizer, you are giving 20%N 8.8% P and 16.6% K of the actual element the plant can potentially use. The rest is oxygen, hydrogen etc. Whether these are ''available'' to the plant is another matter. For example P can be water soluble - immediately available, citrate soluble - slowly available, citrate insoluble - unavailable.
To covert the figures multiply the percentage of P on the pack x 0.44 and the percentage of K on the pack x 0.83.
 

MichaelS

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Also, have you done soil analysis to test which liquids hold in the soil? And, are you using an organic substrate in your soil? Organic material will hold liquid fertilizer for much longer, and certain liquid fertilizers stay in the pot longer regardless of substrate, like fish. Dyna Grow gets used by the plant and washed out quite rapidly. There are much more uncontrollable variables with liquid fertilizer.

Actually, the soil can only hold on to a nutrient by it's electrical charge. The water in the soil will hold nutrients in solution. Those nutrients which are not bonded electrically are the ones flushed out with water. The nutrients held will not be flushed unless there are others to replace them or the plant takes them up from their sites and they will then be replaced by others. This is how cation exchange works. A high CEC is desirable in a mix but not essential. Hydroponic systems use substrates with low CEC so they need to feed continuously. The kind of modern substrates (expect zeolite) which are popular at the moment have low to moderate CEC so need more frequent fertilizing than those which contain soil or clay or humified organic matter.
The larger particles in fish emulsion may not be flushed as readily but it is only when they are mineralized by bacteria into elements that the plant can use them and of course they can then also be flushed out with water in a low CEC mix.
Having said that, I agree with you about organic cakes being desirable. They offer a slow steady release of nutrients every time the you water which is far better than the feast and famine of periodic water fertilizer water (unless you are really conscientious about your liquid feeding) I did an experiment once where I compared cakes - and supplemental liquid feeding, with constant high N feeding and the result was undesirable huge leaves and long internodes with the later. So it's horses for courses but basically pouring huge doses of high N fertilizer on your bonsai is a practice which sooner or later you would probably stop.
 

Anthony

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Ha, I knew if I left the correct stuff [ read Bonsai bait ] a sensible reply would follow :)

Well rapeseed meal was left on the soil of the pines, but with our dry weather [ say 50 % humidity and breezy ]
all it did was dry.
With the rainy season the material grows fungus etc.
Really not sure if anything happened ????????????

So a few tablespoons of compost [ rated = to rabbit manure ] were added and they slowly melted in.
This works well on the local ficus, maybe the J.B.pine will like it, the Caribbean pine does.

Ah experiments luv em.
Good Day
Anthony

*Thanks Mike fir passing by.Much appreciated, and for the conversion correction.

The German and English products use the conversion factors on the package exteriors.
 

Bolero

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Hi!

Anyone uses Miracle Gro Water Soluble All Purpose Plant Food - NPK 24-8-16?

If so, what amount do you mix with water for bonsai trees?

The package has instructions with different concentrations, but for bonsai might be diferent from the ones provided.

I use a spoonful as supplied by MG to maybe 32oz of H2O, I think of that as Light...but it works well.

watering 002.JPG
 
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MichaelS and Anthony, Well I notice something new every day. You are correct the ratio refers to the N, P2O5 equivalent and K2O equivalent. I never used a conversion factor because my fertilizer recommendations also come conveniently in the same form.
 
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