Michael Hagedorn on 100% pumice soil

[Srt8madness]

This might just be that areas with cheap access to pumice happen to be wetter. Back when I lived in CA, pumice was cheap and you could buy it everywhere. In TX, if I want it I have to get it shipped in. I haven't found a cheap source for it out here so I've been using more perlite in its place.

It's not cheap, but I just ordered 2 cu ft. of pumice from build a soil for $80shipped.

 

[Goodbrake]

It's not cheap, but I just ordered 2 cu ft. of pumice from build a soil for $80shipped.

I can get coarse perlite for half that, which I'm experimenting with this year to see if it works as well.

 

[pandacular]

Perlite has a few weaknesses compared to pumice, namely that it breaks down when chopsticking and is so light that it can easily stratify. However, Andrew Robson uses it in some cases, which he values for making large trees less of back breakers.

 

[Goodbrake]

Perlite has a few weaknesses compared to pumice, namely that it breaks down when chopsticking and is so light that it can easily stratify. However, Andrew Robson uses it in some cases, which he values for making large trees less of back breakers.

Right now I'm using it for seedlings and stuff early in development. I suspect with something more developed the pros and cons of different soil components matter more.

 

[Coach_]

It's not cheap, but I just ordered 2 cu ft. of pumice from build a soil for $80shipped.

For just $6.40 you can get 1 Cu. Ft of Pumice from Oregon from here. Never ordered from here but might have to try it!

Pumice – Medium (1/4″-3/8″)

We are unable to ship single 1 cu ft bags of pumice. Individual 1 cu ft bags are available for purchase in our showroom in Milwaukie, OR. Please see our dealer page to look for a retail location cl…

www.concentratesnw.com

Theres also: https://pumicestore.com/pumice-products/pumice-soil-succulents.html

45 LB bag for about $25 (Which is about 1 or 2 Cu. ft cant tell). This is the HESS pumice thats mentioned earlier.

 

[Goodbrake]

For just $6.40 you can get 1 Cu. Ft of Pumice from Oregon from here. Never ordered from here but might have to try it!

Pumice – Medium (1/4″-3/8″)

We are unable to ship single 1 cu ft bags of pumice. Individual 1 cu ft bags are available for purchase in our showroom in Milwaukie, OR. Please see our dealer page to look for a retail location cl…

www.concentratesnw.com

Theres also: https://pumicestore.com/pumice-products/pumice-soil-succulents.html

45 LB bag for about $25 (Which is about 1 or 2 Cu. ft cant tell). This is the HESS pumice thats mentioned earlier.

These look great, but it appears that what you gain on the good price, you lose to shipping costs (or unavailability.)

 

[Coach_]

These look great, but it appears that what you gain on the good price, you lose to shipping costs (or unavailability.)

The cheapest one doesnt ship to us in Texas. Ive reached out to see if they can for a bulk maybe.

I have ordered from the pumice store though, which only has the super white HESS pumice, which isnt half bad.

 

[Srt8madness]

For just $6.40 you can get 1 Cu. Ft of Pumice from Oregon from here. Never ordered from here but might have to try it!

Pumice – Medium (1/4″-3/8″)

We are unable to ship single 1 cu ft bags of pumice. Individual 1 cu ft bags are available for purchase in our showroom in Milwaukie, OR. Please see our dealer page to look for a retail location cl…

www.concentratesnw.com

Theres also: https://pumicestore.com/pumice-products/pumice-soil-succulents.html

45 LB bag for about $25 (Which is about 1 or 2 Cu. ft cant tell). This is the HESS pumice thats mentioned earlier.

The Oregon place doesn't ship those bags. Unfortunately the 2nd is $62 for a 45# bag shipped to me, double that for 2 bags.

 

[badatusernames]

I’m having trouble finding pumice and lava the correct size for medium grain Akadama - only seeing what would be small such as Bonsai Jack

Does anyone have any ideas for that? Random q but figured I’d ask given the topic of the thread and direction it’s taken…

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

We use General Pumice in the odd times we need to alter the mix of our recycled media. 3 gallos for 32 bucks shipped, presifted for size, although we sift it again due to shipping…. Considering this, and labor savings, not a bad price.

https://www.generalpumice.com/shop/316-size-35-gallon-bag-garden-pumice

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[BaKiBonsai]

We use black lava here instead of pumice, but it also works very well. Theyre both volcanic rock, so it’s not surprising. Lava has the benefit of being a heavier so it doesnt wash away as easily, and the dark color looks pretty nice in the pot as well.

I think Mr Hagedorn doesn't promote lava, His former apprentice is really advocating against it.

- https://crataegus.com/2023/03/10/is...onsai community,than pumice and akadama alone.
-

 

[Ruddigger]

Literally everything in the garden where I trained is in a 70/30 lava/akadama mix. I bump that up to 50/50 in my own garden.

 

[MrBonsai19]

I can get coarse perlite for half that, which I'm experimenting with this year to see if it works as well.

is that source shareable?

I have found for perlite you either get cheap unsifted bags and the fine particules and dust that you are exposed to during sifting is BRUTAL. worse than any other medium IMO because of how light the material is all the fine particles get wafted through the air. I use an N95 mask and even still find myself coughing and irritated throat when sifting perlite.

Pre-sifted perlite is so much more expensive for me than pumice. Would love to source some useable sifted perlite if possible. I like pumice for my mature trees but for development projects no need to weigh the pots down so much.

 

[Brain Treez]

is that source shareable?

I have found for perlite you either get cheap unsifted bags and the fine particules and dust that you are exposed to during sifting is BRUTAL. worse than any other medium IMO because of how light the material is all the fine particles get wafted through the air. I use an N95 mask and even still find myself coughing and irritated throat when sifting perlite.

Pre-sifted perlite is so much more expensive for me than pumice. Would love to source some useable sifted perlite if possible. I like pumice for my mature trees but for development projects no need to weigh the pots down so much.

Have you tried sifting it wet? That's how I do pumice and it works like a charm.

 

[DirtyZ]

Have you tried sifting it wet? That's how I do pumice and it works like a charm.

I’ve been considering trying this again myself as the dust is irritating my lungs, but doesn’t sifting it wet cake up? I recently tried sifting some wet perlite thru 1/16” window screen and it was a clumped mess. Maybe pumice is easier

 

[Brain Treez]

I’ve been considering trying this again myself as the dust is irritating my lungs, but doesn’t sifting it wet cake up? I recently tried sifting some wet perlite thru 1/16” window screen and it was a clumped mess. Maybe pumice is easier

I guess "wet" doesn't properly describe how I do pumice. It's more washing it in a sifter. I fill a 5 gallon bucket mostly full of water, scoop some media with the sifter (I use a plastic colander) and repeatedly half dunk it in the water while shaking. Considering how perlite is less dense (does it still float when saturated?), you can instead "spray and shake" by hosing down the media in the sifter while shaking it. It uses more water than the bucket method, but should have similar results.

 

[BaKiBonsai]

is that source shareable?

I have found for perlite you either get cheap unsifted bags and the fine particules and dust that you are exposed to during sifting is BRUTAL. worse than any other medium IMO because of how light the material is all the fine particles get wafted through the air. I use an N95 mask and even still find myself coughing and irritated throat when sifting perlite.

Pre-sifted perlite is so much more expensive for me than pumice. Would love to source some useable sifted perlite if possible. I like pumice for my mature trees but for development projects no need to weigh the pots down so much.

The perlite dust is no joke. Recommendations are to always wet the material before handling. It's compared to glass, and glass fibres in your long are asbestos levels. Likely it's not as bad as they make it sound, overreacting?

 

[MrBonsai19]

I guess "wet" doesn't properly describe how I do pumice. It's more washing it in a sifter. I fill a 5 gallon bucket mostly full of water, scoop some media with the sifter (I use a plastic colander) and repeatedly half dunk it in the water while shaking. Considering how perlite is less dense (does it still float when saturated?), you can instead "spray and shake" by hosing down the media in the sifter while shaking it. It uses more water than the bucket method, but should have similar results.

thats a good suggestion. Haven't tried it but I did use a similar method for my lava particles which came with a lot of dust embedded within the 1/4" pieces that could nto be removed by sifting... washing the lava while it was on top of the sifting screen worked well and I could see that helping a ton for sifitng perlite

 

[stubmle]

Good points. The Idaho pumice is much whiter than the pumice I purchased from Bonsai Jack a couple years ago (and whiter than the pumice I purchased locally when I lived in Seattle). The Idaho pumice is also 10% heavier, but that could be due to the aggregate size of the Idaho pumice being smaller and more uniform, and therefore there are smaller air pockets. Also, the Idaho pumice seems to have a smoother surface. @MaciekA Other than color, are there any other things Michael warned that you might not like about the Idaho pumice vs. the Oregon pumice?

Left = Bonsai Jack (location of source unknown)
Right = Idaho

View attachment 585173
View attachment 585174

The stuff on the left looks almost like hyuuga, but that might be a coincidence.
What with shipping costs, it's usually cheaper for me to buy the imported stuff from a local bonsai nursery than to order it from the processor. Plus I think hyuuga has a nicer color.

 

[pandacular]

I think Mr Hagedorn doesn't promote lava, His former apprentice is really advocating against it.

- https://crataegus.com/2023/03/10/is-lava-good-for-bonsai-media/#:~:text=While the professional bonsai community,than pumice and akadama alone.
-

It is worth noting that both Michael and Andrew will tell you that one of the issues with lava is that the characteristics vary by source, and they have had both good and bad sources in Oregon—I think it might be somewhat of a stretch to make a blanket statement that either advocate against its use.

Personally after moving some big trees in both pumice and akadama and the three part mix, I’m even more biased towards the former—gotta protect my back!