SouthernMaple
Chumono
the seasons really help me identify the differences between cultivars especially spring, I guess I will never agree with any of you on this one. How do you tell the difference between Rode Island Red and and Shaina?
Maple identifications
- Thread starter Daluke
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caffeinated
Mame
Being able to distinguish the cultivars doesn't mean either plant is a genetic clone of one or the other. To be that cultivar it has to be a genetic clone. Looking identical isn't the same. But this is really not that important for enjoying them, just for classification, or probably more important and also problematic, monetization.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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Provenance, having a chain of receipts, documenting identity and ownership. In plants you need to document that the DNA is identical. That it is a clone, or you can not get the added value price. Not just by comparing pretty pictures from a golden book.
I know from what you have said I will be reluctant to purchase named cultivars from your nursery because you do not understand the importance of provenance. It is similar to pedigree papers with dog or horse breeders. Just because it looks like a certain breed, without the AKC or similar papers, you can not get pedigree prices. Pound puppy prices unless you can clearly demonstrate provenance.
If you are planning to start a part time or full time nursery operation, you NEED to save every receipts and the original plant tags for your purchases of propagation stock, so you can document to customers that the names for your cultivars are accurate and not just pulled out of your hat or invented. Comparing pictures to determine what cultivar you are looking at is a fail.
With my orchid collection of select cultivars, I had brass numbered tags tied to the rhizomes of my more valuable clones, so that if they got knocked out of the pot, and the plastic tag got lost or faded, the stamped number tag was tied to the roots. Here a "normal" Paph rothschildlianum from seed might be worth $75 to $150 at blooming size. A blooming size division of an awarded Paph rothschildianum 'Mount Milais' FCC/AOS might sell for $1500 to $4000 depending on how recent the award. The most I ever sold a single orchid for was $2500. The person who bought it, made his investment back with interest in about 5 years. Here provenance counts, pictures are important, but a chain of evidence, receipts, plant labels from source nursery, who you got it from, what is the parentage and the history, is all critical. And these are windowsill size plants.
With trees, similar care must be taken. Keep fresh legible labels on all trees you plan to eventually propagate. Otherwise your collection will become a bunch of worthless junk, that can only be sold at the no name seedling price.
SouthernMaple
Chumono
I appreciate your advice, I will use it to properly start my nursery. However I am not starting a nursery to make money, I am doing it to make people happy including myself.
SouthernMaple
Chumono
I don't do this to make money, that's what my other career was for.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
Seriously, I wish you success in your endeavor. I appreciate your enthusiasm and truly do want you to share at least a modicum of success, but these last 2 posts did make me laugh. But then, I am in my 70s and I well remember many dreams run wild.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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Making people happy, means when you sell a tree labelled as a cultivar, the provenance is solid, and not "gee whizz it kind of looks like" . I'd be real upset if I paid good money and found out later that cultivar name was guessed at.
SouthernMaple
Chumono
thats not gonna happen with any of my trees and if it does than you will be fully refunded and then some for the time I wasted of yours.
KiwiPlantGuy
Omono
So where do you get your cultivars from?
And then how do you know if they are correctly named?
Or do you just believe that only you have the correct ones?
Oh, and did you go to the breeder either in your country or visit the country of the breeder and get first hand that the ones you buy are totally correct?
And yes, this might help you think I have an attitude, but like a number of members here, I have 30 odd years in Horticulture including nursery work. And I struggle to believe that you think you are correct with all your 100’s of cultivars. Sorry, I am skeptical to say the least.
So good luck with your dream and hope it works well for you.
KikurageOtomo
Mame
I thought it was fairly obvious in my post but I never implied one cant make an educated guess that in all likely-hood is correct. Though if you think you can analyze the genetic structure of a piece of material with your bare eyes I'd appreciate a couple hits of whatever you're having, I could easily get seedlings from a random cultivar in my yard and the vast majority of those seedlings will at a cursory glace appear to be the cultivar. At the end of the day its fairly unimportant because if it looks, smells, talks like a Deshojo (Or whatever cultivar), then for all intents and purposes it is.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
That's the problem isn't it? It all depends ON WHAT YOU PERCIEVE to be a certain cultivar based on what you've seen. If you're not discriminating in getting to see ACTUAL examples, you can put yourself on the wrong path...What you've seen offhand in nurseries that aren't really confirming what they're selling, MAY NOT be what the actual cultivar looks like--particularly true if you're using photos in books and not real life.
This happens all the time with Kingsville boxwood. Kingsville was first discovered and propagated at nursery in Maryland in 1912. They're relatively common around here in the DMV and some of the original Kingsville cuttings were planted in the White House Rose Garden in the 1960's. They've been available over the years as bonsai stock material in the area from one particular grower who has cuttings from the originating nursery who has sold them at local bonsai shows. However, there are several other cultivars that resemble them and are sold as "kingsville" when they're not. They're close to what Kingsville look like, but there are differences in foliage size and some other things. See page 7 in this Boxwood Society Journal.
People who haven't ever seen an example of a "real" Kingsville have the image of an "imposter" in their head for reference. They compare what they "know" to what they're evaluating. It's not an accurate comparison and is based on a misunderstanding. If you've only seen one example and its the wrong example, you've skewed your ability to identify things correctly.
All of this doesn't sound like much--small leaves are small leaves, etc...BUT Kingsville are extremely slow growing and larger examples command high prices. Other cultivars grow a bit more (or a lot more) quickly and not as tightly. If I'm paying a premium for a "kingsville" then I should be getting what I'm paying for, which comes with particular predictable growth habits.
Daluke
Mame
This thread has taken an interesting turn - I just wanted to identify what two trees of mine would be and it seems all we can definitely say is they are both jap maples!
Lots of good points in regards to labelling, identification, genetics and looking for proof.
So really, the takeaway is, unless you send the tree off for genetic testing you can never ever be certain a cultivar is what it is labelled as. Forget what the nurseryman says - unless you trace the bloodline back you have something that “really looks like”…
Lots of good points in regards to labelling, identification, genetics and looking for proof.
So really, the takeaway is, unless you send the tree off for genetic testing you can never ever be certain a cultivar is what it is labelled as. Forget what the nurseryman says - unless you trace the bloodline back you have something that “really looks like”…
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
That is precisely so. This very subject has been discussed multiple times and when the pros speak it is from nomenclature and not speculation.
But buying from a well respected source will generally alleviate those concerns.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
I agree. I could have a field of mature Bloodgoods, and pull 50 red seedlings from under the trees. I'll bet many would look very much like a Bloodgood - and some might be visually indistinguishable. But none of them would be.If you find it easy you have not seen enough maples. I have 44 cultivars of JM and I couldn't come close to knowing them all by a leaf or other distinguishing feature. To make things more difficult, some of them are so similar that you may see no differentiation in decades......or ever.
Yeah, I'd say you were a rarity.
I have done air-layers on trees before where the parent tree and the air-layer end up looking quite different - even though they are the same tree!
Not exactly. You just have to have a provenance. A provenance is a clear track back to the source. If you buy trees at retail, in many case the retailer doesn't label them - the wholesale nursery does. The wholesale nursery isn't in the business of "guessing" what trees they have. They have a number of species and cultivars, all are tagged, and usually they are kept physically separated from one another so chances of a mix-up are minimized. If word got out that a wholesale nursery was mixing up tags, or that they didn't really know their cultivars but they were tagging their trees regardless, no one would ever buy from them again. I know I wouldn't. If I order a special cultivar from across the country, I want to be 100% certain that I am getting what I ordered. I don't want a tree that "looks like" what I ordered. Huge difference. In fact, there are many times I receive a cultivar and it doesn't look exactly like that cultivar pictured in a book. There is no way I COULD visually identify it. I have to depend on the tag. And I have to trust the person who tagged the tree. With professional growers it is rarely an issue. It's when trees end up in peoples' yards, and then people go to resell them at some point, and have forgotten what cultivar it is, and they guess... that's when issues tend to pop up.
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KikurageOtomo
Mame
None of this bodes well for the "Deshojo" (Fairly convinced at this point its not) I took a chance on buying from an unscrupulous plant dealer on Amazon. When it comes to cultivars, at least the desirable ones, you're better off sticking to nurseries with an established reputation or a hobbyist who doesn't want his name slandered.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet
If you like the tree, that's all that matters... unless you plan on propagating it. Then if you don't know, don't try to pretend. In fact, just show photos of the tree and say "mystery Japanese maple" and I'll bet you'll get 2x as much for it
