Gabler
Masterpiece
I get the same results you pictured with “entrapped“ roots grown into the bags.
I’ll have to bear in mind your watering advice to promote better growth.
Making own grow bags
- Thread starter The Warm Canuck
- Start date
I get the same results you pictured with “entrapped“ roots grown into the bags.
I’ll have to bear in mind your watering advice to promote better growth.
Gabler
Masterpiece
I tend to be quick to up-pot trees I’m growing out. Would you still recommend keeping them in the same grow bags for extended periods of time if the goal is to increase trunk girth? Note that I’m planning a move in the near future and I don’t want to plant trees in the ground until I’m settled at the new place.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
@LittleDingus the problem is the bag you are using. Every time I peel a bag off I can hear the root tips breaking, no thick roots circling the bags at all. You can see some pruning on yours with the feeder roots on the sides though.
BC - 1 year in the bag. Roots grow too fast on this , so only 1 year. 2 gal bag folded in 1/2
JBP - only 9 months in the bag. 1 gal folded in 1/2.
JBP kabudachi from cmeg1, since Aug 21, so 1 year 7 months. A few roots escaped down the bottom seam growing into the pumice surrounding the bag.
BC - 1 year in the bag. Roots grow too fast on this , so only 1 year. 2 gal bag folded in 1/2
JBP - only 9 months in the bag. 1 gal folded in 1/2.
JBP kabudachi from cmeg1, since Aug 21, so 1 year 7 months. A few roots escaped down the bottom seam growing into the pumice surrounding the bag.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Yes, because every time you take them out of the bag you are injuring the roots, which need to repair before they start feeding the tree.
LittleDingus
Omono
Do you get the circling roots too? There are a couple in that picture that went all the way around past full circle once I combed them out.
In true root pruning pots, the tips get trapped and guided to the air and can't escape without a full 180 direction change. That's what really helps with root back budding. If the root can change less than some critical angle and remain in soil, it will tend to do so...
I thought if I made my own fabric pots I'd try squares. I've seen sources that suggest when transplanting from round pots into the ground...especially into heavier soils...to cut square corners in the ground hole to make it more likely the roots penetrate the boundary.
Tieball
Masterpiece
This reminds me of the statement:
Why pay $7.95 for something that you can DIY for $59.00
Why pay $7.95 for something that you can DIY for $59.00
LittleDingus
Omono
No. The "problem" is that I grow mostly deciduous trees and I "overwater" them.
The spruce, pines, and firs...even junipers...I have in grow bags don't circle because 1) I don't water them quite as much and 2) they don't grow roots as aggressively.
I get the root ripping too. That's 100% the entrapment. The circling happens because I keep the soil habitable. The root is quite happy growing along the boundary because there is air and moisture. I try not to let the soil dry out during the growing season so that water availability isn't the limiting resource for photosynthesis.
Just to give an idea, even my oaks grow moss and algea on the outside of the bags during the growing season...that's how wet I keep my trees. The fabric acts like a sponge and stores water in the weave. I live in a wind tunnel. Air circulation is not a problem.
In a true air pruning pot
Air-Pot | How the Air-Pot system works through enhancing root systems
The Air-Pot system, an overview of how the Air-Pot system works, why improved roots mean better plants and how this has led to experts adopting Air-Pot.
air-pot.us
it wouldn't matter as much how wet I keep things. The roots are channeled out to the air and cannot make the 180 degree bend back to moister soil. The tips die because the root has nowhere else to go. Then they have to backbud. I've used these pots. I would still be using them except that they are more expensive and are awkward and the air pruning seams to be a detriment to good nebari in the same way that not allowing a trunk to extend is a detriment to girth.
One can keep a grow bag dry enough that it air prunes, but why? You're losing a good portion of the volume of hospitable soil to keep the edges inhospitable to roots.
Think about how little moisture it takes to keep a root that escaped out of a nursery can alive. It's not uncommon to see roots through the drain holes in a nursery can. Those are open air. How dry does soil behind a thick plastic cloth need to be to kill a root?
I love grow bags. Most everythinI grow is in them. I have been using them quite happily for years and intend to continue for many more. I just don't pretend that they are a good solution for air pruning. I've used air pruning pots too and the difference is quite remarkable.
In my experience, grain size of inorganic components in the soil has a much bigger impact on volume of feeder roots than air pruning. I love the small grains of NAPA 8822 for that reason. But again...nothing is in isolation...
Tieball
Masterpiece
Well commented. You know your growing products very well. Mighty fine! Keep up the excellent growing.No. The "problem" is that I grow mostly deciduous trees and I "overwater" them.
The spruce, pines, and firs...even junipers...I have in grow bags don't circle because 1) I don't water them quite as much and 2) they don't grow roots as aggressively.
I get the root ripping too. That's 100% the entrapment. The circling happens because I keep the soil habitable. The root is quite happy growing along the boundary because there is air and moisture. I try not to let the soil dry out during the growing season so that water availability isn't the limiting resource for photosynthesis.
Just to give an idea, even my oaks grow moss and algea on the outside of the bags during the growing season...that's how wet I keep my trees. The fabric acts like a sponge and stores water in the weave. I live in a wind tunnel. Air circulation is not a problem.
In a true air pruning pot
Air-Pot | How the Air-Pot system works through enhancing root systems
The Air-Pot system, an overview of how the Air-Pot system works, why improved roots mean better plants and how this has led to experts adopting Air-Pot.
it wouldn't matter as much how wet I keep things. The roots are channeled out to the air and cannot make the 180 degree bend back to moister soil. The tips die because the root has nowhere else to go. Then they have to backbud. I've used these pots. I would still be using them except that they are more expensive and are awkward and the air pruning seams to be a detriment to good nebari in the same way that not allowing a trunk to extend is a detriment to girth.
One can keep a grow bag dry enough that it air prunes, but why? You're losing a good portion of the volume of hospitable soil to keep the edges inhospitable to roots.
Think about how little moisture it takes to keep a root that escaped out of a nursery can alive. It's not uncommon to see roots through the drain holes in a nursery can. Those are open air. How dry does soil behind a thick plastic cloth need to be to kill a root?
I love grow bags. Most everythinI grow is in them. I have been using them quite happily for years and intend to continue for many more. I just don't pretend that they are a good solution for air pruning. I've used air pruning pots too and the difference is quite remarkable.
In my experience, grain size of inorganic components in the soil has a much bigger impact on volume of feeder roots than air pruning. I love the small grains of NAPA 8822 for that reason. But again...nothing is in isolation...
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Did you see the condition of the bags on my pictures above? The BC grows IN WATER 24/7 all year round...
JBP in ground get watered twice a day, and the mulch around the bags keep the ground extremely wet... see the green moss/algae on the bags?
Again, I do understand that you are set on air-pruning, but you're missing the notion that the bags I posted DO NOT AIR PRUNE, the prune by constriction of the root tips. Which means you can water the hell out of them, even IN the ground and they will still provide the root pruning you would get on any air-pruning devise.
Dr. Carl Whitcomb was the one that created the "root pruning air pots", see his collection below, before others started manufacturing their own versions as the link you posted. Yet, he also created the RootTrapper that he uses on his new generation of root bags,
RootBuilder® II Kits
The RootBuilder Pint - RootBuilder High 5 containers are easily assembled around a bottom disk.
myrootmaker.com
I don't do air-pruning, it is to hot and too windy here in the Hill Country, no mountains or forests to hold back the wind would mean dry dead trees, or the need for watering several times a day. Yet, I can get the same or better about of growth from a bag in the ground or above.
LittleDingus
Omono
Did you see the condition of the bags on my pictures above? The BC grows IN WATER 24/7 all year round...
View attachment 483455
JBP in ground get watered twice a day, and the mulch around the bags keep the ground extremely wet... see the green moss/algae on the bags?
View attachment 483456
Again, I do understand that you are set on air-pruning, but you're missing the notion that the bags I posted DO NOT AIR PRUNE, the prune by constriction of the root tips. Which means you can water the hell out of them, even IN the ground and they will still provide the root pruning you would get on any air-pruning devise.
Dr. Carl Whitcomb was the one that created the "root pruning air pots", see his collection below, before others started manufacturing their own versions as the link you posted. Yet, he also created the RootTrapper that he uses on his new generation of root bags,
RootBuilder® II Kits
The RootBuilder Pint - RootBuilder High 5 containers are easily assembled around a bottom disk.myrootmaker.com
I don't do air-pruning, it is to hot and too windy here in the Hill Country, no mountains or forests to hold back the wind would mean dry dead trees, or the need for watering several times a day. Yet, I can get the same or better about of growth from a bag in the ground or above.
Whatever. It's the internet. I could give a shit less about the opinions of an avatar much as you should give a shit less about the opinions of a litt dingus. I'm not pushing a product nor am I telling anyone what to do. I am merely stating my knowledge as it exists today. Tomorrow I may learn something else. I may not. Hard to say...
I've seen these bags marketed as air pruning. I've seen them marketed as preventing circular roots. That is why I brought that into the discussion. They don't. Documented. As you mention, that doesn't make them useless. I use them almost exclusively. Just not because of the marketing hype.
To further the discussion...or maybe just to piss people off more...make up your own mind on that
Entrapment pruning is not enough to prevent circling roots. I've provided evidence of that.
Once a root starts to circle, entrapment pruning starts to have a limited impact on bifurcation. Only one side of the root gets pruned off as only exterior facing roots get pruned. Interior facing one's do not. It's kinda like what happens pruning only the left side of a tree.
How much of an impact entrapment has depends on genetics. Nothing in isolation. Most of my conifers are not serious enough rooters to circle even after several years. Heck most of them would be hard pressed to circle in nursery cans after only a year. Most of my deciduous will. Redwood and bald cypress will circle in a year unless they are seriously over potted. My oaks take longer.
Relevant to this thread, I've wanted to make square bags. 90 degrees starts to be too sharp for most roots to want to make the bend. That's where the true air prune pot discussion matters. Those pots force roots into a corner they cannot escape. Round entrapment bags aren't effective at that. Smaller ones with a tighter radius would be more effective than the larger bags with less curvature. The corner of square bags should be more effective which should make for increased bifurcation.
...and with that, I will bend to the iron will of the maiden and fuck off out of this thread for good
PonderingSage:
Shohin
Maybe some kind of grow box-bag fusion might work. Something like building a thin wooden frame and lining it with the fabric…just a thought 
BrightsideB
Omono
Cool grow tub!Did you see the condition of the bags on my pictures above? The BC grows IN WATER 24/7 all year round...
View attachment 483455
JBP in ground get watered twice a day, and the mulch around the bags keep the ground extremely wet... see the green moss/algae on the bags?
View attachment 483456
Again, I do understand that you are set on air-pruning, but you're missing the notion that the bags I posted DO NOT AIR PRUNE, the prune by constriction of the root tips. Which means you can water the hell out of them, even IN the ground and they will still provide the root pruning you would get on any air-pruning devise.
Dr. Carl Whitcomb was the one that created the "root pruning air pots", see his collection below, before others started manufacturing their own versions as the link you posted. Yet, he also created the RootTrapper that he uses on his new generation of root bags,
RootBuilder® II Kits
The RootBuilder Pint - RootBuilder High 5 containers are easily assembled around a bottom disk.myrootmaker.com
I don't do air-pruning, it is to hot and too windy here in the Hill Country, no mountains or forests to hold back the wind would mean dry dead trees, or the need for watering several times a day. Yet, I can get the same or better about of growth from a bag in the ground or above.
Similar threads
