Looking for info

[Hobbes]

as a reefer, you know more about light than most.

medium shade for houseplants is roughly 1000 foot candles or 13000 LUX.

Half sun is about 4000 foot candles or approximately 43000 LUX. (lumens per square meter

most plants are not overly sensitive to spectrum, bluer is better to a point, but differences is growth are relatively minor, anything between 5200K and 6700K will give satisfactory results.

Daylength - most sun-tropical and tropical species are day length neutral - meaning day length does not govern growth habit. In which case you can compensate for lower light intensity with longer day length. I use an 18 hour day length 365 days a year with good results. With long day length, you can grow under 25000 LUX plants that under 12 hours day length would normally require 35000 LUX. This is not exact, but with long day length I have been blooming half to 3/4 direct sun orchids under lights that are delivering ''bright shade'' quality light.

There are exceptions, Chrysanthemum & Euphorbia puchella (Poinsettia) will not bloom under long day length. So you may have to dig for each species you are growing. Azalea use temperature changes to set flower buds, they can be grown under lights if you can chill them at night some 20 to 25 degrees F cooler than in the growing season. (below 60 F).

Murryara, Eugenia, Malpighia, Ficus, Pernettya, Carmona, Portulacara afra, are all easy under lights without having to max out light intensities.

Juniper procumbens nana can be grown under lights if you get as close to full sun intensities as possible, 43000 LUX or brighter. Pines in general are difficult to impossible under lights.

But with the understanding of light gardening you have fromyour reef expeience, setting up an indoor light garden is easy.

Just finished measuring with a par meter and did the conversion. Figured I'd post up the results in case anyone is interested.

Bulbs are 6500k from Amazon. 54w t5ho, with individual reflectors touching each other. So bulbs are about 3" apart. Measurements were taken directly in the middle of the two bulbs where the light is the strongest due to overlap. This is with two bulbs.

Distance from bulb / output
@bulb = 1000 par/74,000 lux
@6" = 480 par/ 35,520 lux
@12" = 220 par/ 16,280 lux
@18" = 130 par/ 9620 lux
@24" = 92 par/ 1776 lux

Same setup WITHOUT individual reflectors. This shows how much more light you can get with the reflectors:

@bulb = same numbers
@6" = 140 par/ 10,360 lux
@12" = 66 par/ 4884 lux
@18" = 32 par/ 2368 lux

Looks like I should be pretty good. I might try some agromax bulbs to see if they put out a little more. I know in aquaria, good bulbs can put out significantly more than cheap amazon/ebay stuff like these. Stands to reason it's the same with horticulture bulbs.

 

[Relknes]

Here is a thought, if you are able to arrange it: before you move, plant something in the ground in Florida (perhaps at a friend's place or your mother-in-law's house, if they are willing to give you a few square feet of soil). Whenever you come back to visit (over the holidays or whatever), do some basic pruning or shaping. Trees don't take much maintenance while in the ground, since it is mostly about letting them grow and get some girth, and you should be able to develop a nice start on a tree with just 1 or 2 days of work each year. When you move back, you can move it to a training pot to finish development. In the mean time, get a Chinese Elm to practice on, which should survive fine in either climate, and are pretty easy beginner trees.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Remember to some degree, you can make up for lower intensities by using a long day length, up to 18 hours. It does help, I use 18 hours all year round.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

join your local bonsai club as this is the best place to learn and develop relationships.

You didn't say WHERE in Wisconsin. Milwaukee has a great bonsai society.

 

[Hobbes]

Green Bay. There is a club and I plan on joining.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Remember to some degree, you can make up for lower intensities by using a long day length, up to 18 hours. It does help, I use 18 hours all year round.

However does this not upset the trees seasonal rythms?

 

[Tieball]

all light gardens are improved with good air movement. I keep fans running 24/7/365 in my light garden. Enough that thin leaves are moving gently at all times. It really helps.

Right.....good information....air movement is often missed. Keeps some pests away too and helps eliminate that stale moist air scent that can easily develop inside.

 

[GrimLore]

Looks like I should be pretty good.

The par rating looks good as is - might consider two lights above the plants and two horizontal from side to side, one in front and back for good distribution. You could easily stick with 16 hours but I recommend 8 on 4 off 8 on 4 off being the common practice of large growers. Air flow, as stated is a must and be aware of humidity and adjust as needed. These are inexpensive and I have several in the plant room http://www.homedepot.com/p/AcuRite-Thermometer-with-Humidity-00339HDSBA2/100659742 It is really interesting how many different micro climates on can have in one room.

Grimmy

 

[Hobbes]

Thanks guys. Grimmy I plan on keeping the tropical in a basement. If I need to raise humidity I will build a little greenhouse with a tarp and stick a humidifier in there. I also plan on putting a fan on the t5 themselves as they really are designed Ed to have active cooling. That should be enough air movement for the plants to as well.

I was also considering vertical/horizontal bulbs for any taller trees down the road. Right now they're all pretty short though. The par remains relatively the same with decent enough spread to cover what I have now. I do have plenty of 2 footers I can add in though for supplement if needed. Thanks for the ideas!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

However does this not upset the trees seasonal rythms?

Yes, for some, the longer day length will tell them it is spring and they will start growing again, not a problem. You are not going to put them back outside until danger of frost is past.

Not surprisingly, majority of trees, shrubs and plants do not use day length to govern growth patterns. Majority of trees use other cues to govern seasonal growth patterns, night time temperatures being the most common. These are the species that need the cold or buds won't sprout in spring. This is one group that can not be wintered warm. Many temperate climate species fall in this group. Many in the white pine group, especially JWP, and relatives.

Some species have recptors for airborne sequiterpenes secreted by pines, spruce & firs, they don't put metabolic energy into thheir own biological clock, just read the chemicals given off by the surrounding forest. Our homes are not air tight, these signaling chemicals are in the air everywhere. The plants that use other trees chemical signals will just sit under lights through winter, and start growing in spring when everything outside wakes up. There are a few of orchids in this group. Bring a spring blooming orchid from Australia to North America, in less than 3 years it will be blooming in the North American spring.

There are other biological clocks, but the point is, for the plants that use light, a long day length merely tells them to grow, which under lights is not a bad thing.

 

[f1pt4]

Just finished measuring with a par meter and did the conversion. Figured I'd post up the results in case anyone is interested.

Bulbs are 6500k from Amazon. 54w t5ho, with individual reflectors touching each other. So bulbs are about 3" apart. Measurements were taken directly in the middle of the two bulbs where the light is the strongest due to overlap. This is with two bulbs.

Distance from bulb / output
@bulb = 1000 par/74,000 lux
@6" = 480 par/ 35,520 lux
@12" = 220 par/ 16,280 lux
@18" = 130 par/ 9620 lux
@24" = 92 par/ 1776 lux

Same setup WITHOUT individual reflectors. This shows how much more light you can get with the reflectors:

@bulb = same numbers
@6" = 140 par/ 10,360 lux
@12" = 66 par/ 4884 lux
@18" = 32 par/ 2368 lux

Looks like I should be pretty good. I might try some agromax bulbs to see if they put out a little more. I know in aquaria, good bulbs can put out significantly more than cheap amazon/ebay stuff like these. Stands to reason it's the same with horticulture bulbs.

I just wanted to say thank you for this!!! Seriously. I was freaking out because all of my tropicals looked super stressed. Everything but my ficus' and schef were like wtf. dude. Why can't we be outside? I told them it's cold, and that the lights were better for them. They didn't agree.

So i got too many HOT5's, and it turns out after using your calculations and transputing them in my brain, I was frying my plants.

All of my 8 and 6 bay HOT5's are now running on 4 bulbs. The plants are much happier. They stopped dropping leaves. Some even started flowering.

So thank you.

p.s. I can't put the lights any higher, or trees lower. Space restrictions and the what not. So 4 bulbs on in each bay it is. Save me some electricity $$$.


Much obliged.

More light is not more betterer.

The post with calculations should be pinned. It's gold.

 

[Hobbes]

You're very welcome. Although in all honesty, I'm too new to this to tell you if that was the problem you were having. Individual reflectors are rarely seen outside of reef aquarium equipment. You're saying each bulb has it's own reflector in your fixtures?

 

[f1pt4]

You're very welcome. Although in all honesty, I'm too new to this to tell you if that was the problem you were having. Individual reflectors are rarely seen outside of reef aquarium equipment. You're saying each bulb has it's own reflector in your fixtures?

yes each bulb has its own reflector in each fixture. I'm pretty sure it was an underlying cause. They've been under lights now for 5 weeks. Other trees of same species in same soil strewn across the house around Windows weren't suffering nearly as much.
The other issue with the lights was that the heat generated by them over 16hour cycles was between 28-30C. Fluctuating between 20-21 to 28-30 between the on-off cycle. Now with about half the lights on the fluctuation is between 20-26, which is a bit better.

 

[eugene brown]

Does the T5S lose intensity after use? If so how long? I can't remember exactly where I read it but I thought the intensity was only at 50% after a year of use.

 

[Hobbes]

For quality bulbs, the spectrum will change. Low quality bulbs, who knows. Also, $$$ does not always equal quality. Output should remain roughly the same. This link is for metal halide bulbs for reef aquaria, but their spectrum is generally close to what we could use for plants. Notice some of the bulbs increase output over time. The PPFD column is the output intensity. The same applies for T5HO and metal halide lamps made for plants.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/7/aafeature1

 

[f1pt4]

Does the T5S lose intensity after use? If so how long? I can't remember exactly where I read it but I thought the intensity was only at 50% after a year of use.

Yes the intensity does diminish. I notice newer bulbs glow brighter than their older counterparts. Once the older ones start dimming, it's only a matter of a few weeks before they die. I get about 1 1/2 growing seasons out of mine. I run them usually from end of September to end of April. 16 hours on.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Yes, for some, the longer day length will tell them it is spring and they will start growing again, not a problem. You are not going to put them back outside until danger of frost is past.

Not surprisingly, majority of trees, shrubs and plants do not use day length to govern growth patterns. Majority of trees use other cues to govern seasonal growth patterns, night time temperatures being the most common. These are the species that need the cold or buds won't sprout in spring. This is one group that can not be wintered warm. Many temperate climate species fall in this group. Many in the white pine group, especially JWP, and relatives.

Some species have recptors for airborne sequiterpenes secreted by pines, spruce & firs, they don't put metabolic energy into thheir own biological clock, just read the chemicals given off by the surrounding forest. Our homes are not air tight, these signaling chemicals are in the air everywhere. The plants that use other trees chemical signals will just sit under lights through winter, and start growing in spring when everything outside wakes up. There are a few of orchids in this group. Bring a spring blooming orchid from Australia to North America, in less than 3 years it will be blooming in the North American spring.

There are other biological clocks, but the point is, for the plants that use light, a long day length merely tells them to grow, which under lights is not a bad thing.

Interesting. Being kind of old fashioned had observed that Maples, Doug Fir, native Oaks on hiking hill all had own time to grow and also that Bonsai in pots do same way. This all regardless of night or day temps unless both staying above frost/chilly temps which seemed to hasten things a bit. However if chilly nights lasted later in season did not seem to matter to any trees as they would start growing anyway which led to belief that is photo period determined. Have not looked into all extra factors as you have however still feel that unduly long photo period for many trees for some long time would be hard on them.

 

[jomawa]

Does the T5S lose intensity after use? If so how long?

In this state (of confusion) there are many people currently growing some "flowering" weeds using artificial lighting. I like the T5 lighting but have no use for the blossoms of those weedy plants. Have only just started my indoor growing back in August this year and under a six bulb T5 fixture (4 white and 2 red). I have some small Jade plants, a couple Ming Jade plants (seen in Ahhh, sweet "success" thread), and a cactus I seldom remember the name of. But I digress, the guy at a grow store says approx one year is about as long as one should use bulbs to grow the flowering weeds without changing them out for new bulbs. Claims it has to do with the productivity of the blossoms of those plants, (that the bulbs do seriously within a year loose "a lot" of their beneficial lighting). What effect the bulbs will have on my succulents (or your plants) after a year may be more difficult to quantify than on weedy plants. Grow store guy also says red bulbs tend to not be used much any more and elliminated altogether due to currently better "blue" bulbs, what I and many others call white. Attached are two photos of my bulbs. See also the technical info from reefer Hobbes.

 

[eugene brown]

In this state (of confusion) there are many people currently growing some "flowering" weeds using artificial lighting. I like the T5 lighting but have no use for the blossoms of those weedy plants. Have only just started my indoor growing back in August this year and under a six bulb T5 fixture (4 white and 2 red). I have some small Jade plants, a couple Ming Jade plants (seen in Ahhh, sweet "success" thread), and a cactus I seldom remember the name of. But I digress, the guy at a grow store says approx one year is about as long as one should use bulbs to grow the flowering weeds without changing them out for new bulbs. Claims it has to do with the productivity of the blossoms of those plants, (that the bulbs do seriously within a year loose "a lot" of their beneficial lighting). What effect the bulbs will have on my succulents (or your plants) after a year may be more difficult to quantify than on weedy plants. Grow store guy also says red bulbs tend to not be used much any more and elliminated altogether due to currently better "blue" bulbs, what I and many others call white. Attached are two photos of my bulbs. See also the technical info from reefer Hobbes.
View attachment 121816 View attachment 121817

Thank you, I'm new to bonsai but have a lot of experience with aquariums and planted tanks. Have you experienced this? My T5S don't look any different but my eyes aren't the best.

I also wonder if pumping CO2 into the grow area will help with growth. I know it does wonders in a planted tank as long as the pH doesn't change.

 

[jomawa]

As for growing them flowering weeds (closed environment indoors that is), the use of CO2 is definately done by some attemting to benefit the plants. How/whether to incorporate CO2 or whether it even makes that much diff on tropicals (or any indoor bonsai? plants) still needs to be researched thoroughly and accurately to determine whether really worth the cost and bother. Did anyone find it necessary a generation or two ago. How much differnce does it really make? I can't see anyone going to the trouble of trying CO2 outdoors on their bonsai. I tend to think there are so many other ways and factors to achieve what one is after in bonsai.