Local Pine ID

[JoeR]

I have a large pine on my property as well as a few year old saplings near it, of the same species. It is not like ghe other pines here, and is somewhere around 50ft tall, has hundreds of tiny, 2 inch pine cones, and small 2 or 3 inch dark green curly needles. It is very tall and I cant get a good photo of the needles and branches as well as the whole tree because of the other trees around it. Anyway, can anybody take a guess at what type this beautiful pine is? I have only seen one or two other ones around my area.

I will post pictures in one moment.
My phone is supet finicky so it may be a while, sorry. It uploades them, but everytime im in 'manage attachments' and click 'close window' it actually closes my tabs so I will need to use my actual computer.

 

[garywood]

Jo, needles per sheath?
http://www.treesforme.com/shortleaf_pine.html

 

[JoeR]

Jo, needles per sheath?
http://www.treesforme.com/shortleaf_pine.html

It definently looks like it could be. However, when I google image search it I see images of different pine species so its hard to tell. Are the needles curly/spiral?

 

[garywood]

Jo, some of the southern pines have two needles per sheath, some have three and some have a combination of two and three. identifying these needle clusters will certainly help with the key.

 

[jeanluc83]

Virginia Pine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_virginiana

Pinus virginiana

 

[JoeR]

I am out of town now so I cant check the needles but it sounds like virginia pine. Either way, how well do they do as bonsai?

 

[jeanluc83]

I believe that they are well suited for bonsai.

I think Ryan Neil mentions that Virginia pine is a two flush pine in his pines lectures. Its been a while since I watched the videos though so I could be mistaken.

 

[johng]

Virginia Pine is a two flush pine. It typically has 2-3" twisted needles that will reduce...lighter green color usually. Small cone. I am at the southern end of its range and I never see any that get any where close to 50' tall though but it may be possible?? Could also be short needle as Gary suggests...but I was thinking that had larger cones??

 

[Eric Group]

A wider shot showing more of the tree might be helpful. My Brother has LOADS of Virginia Pines around his property (in the mountains of Virginia, so it makes sense)...

 

[JoeR]

I just got home late last night but this morning I went out and counted the needles. It only has two needles, meaning it is either a virginia pine or a shortleaf. I am almost certain it is a Virginian. With that being said, I have two options. I have a few seedsI collected from a half open pine cone that I could sprout or I could dig up a roughly 2ft sapling. However, with the sapling, I am concerned about not only the size of the saplings roots, but the roots around it. I would be deathly afraid of killing it.

 

[RustyNail]

hi, very good site thank's for have me here.
after looking at your pictures I think it's a Pinus _ nigra there several around here and my older generation called them something else.
I may be wrong on what it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_nigra

 

[Eric Group]

I just got home late last night but this morning I went out and counted the needles. It only has two needles, meaning it is either a virginia pine or a shortleaf. I am almost certain it is a Virginian. With that being said, I have two options. I have a few seedsI collected from a half open pine cone that I could sprout or I could dig up a roughly 2ft sapling. However, with the sapling, I am concerned about not only the size of the saplings roots, but the roots around it. I would be deathly afraid of killing it.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained... And if you killed it, you are out no money... So why not go for it? If you are concerned, just wait until Spring to actually pull it out of the ground. Right now, you can take a shovel and trench a pretty wide little circle around the base of the plant to cut any really long roots and encourage the tree to develop more of a fine root structure closer to the trunk so it will have more to live off of when you eventually dig it up. Then, next Spring, dig it up, cut the tap root and repot it. Leave it alone next growing season and if it survives all year and puts out new growth the following Soring you can be pretty certain it is ready for work.

 

[Eric Group]

hi, very good site thank's for have me here.
after looking at your pictures I think it's a Pinus _ nigra there several around here and my older generation called them something else.
I may be wrong on what it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_nigra

Probably not likely... Black Pine in America are not an indigenous species and only found as landscaped plants. My understanding was that he believes this to be a "local Pine" which pretty much rules out almost all species of Black Pine I know of. They also tend to have longer, straighter needles where as Virginias have those kind of curly short needles like the ones in the pic.

 

[JoeR]

Thats exactly what I was thinking, about the no loss thing at least. Maybe tomorrow I will do the trench idea, it is a great idea to get the roots contained quickly and safely. It is going to be a hassle though, because there is a huge native juniper of some sort growing over it. Are they a good begginer pine, and do they have any specific care requirements compared to other pines? I have never had a pine before and have been told they are more difficult than other bonsai such as maples, etc.

 

[Bob O]

Hey Joe,

Virginia pine are, in my opinion, under utilized for bonsai here on the east coast. I have one I collected a few years ago, it was growing in solid clay and was so starved for nutrients that it was dying and what foliage was on it was lemon yellow.

I have done no styling to it yet just gave it good care watched it's growth habits. It will probably get first styling this fall. I've managed to reduce needle length to less than 3/4 of an inch on mine.

Go ahead and plant your seeds.

With the sapling you can prepare it for collection down the road. To promote feeder roots near the base spread some time release fertilizer like Osmocote or similar around it. If you don't do the trench method then you can take a shovel and just slice a ring into the ground around it without lifting any soil. Add more fertilizer inside this ring next spring. Watch the new growth and candle prune as needed to keep it compact. Then it should be ready to collect by the following spring. This is an extremely cautious approach but is most sure to succeed.

Hope this helps,

Bob O

 

[jeanluc83]

I would say go for it. It sounds like it is only a few years old and therefore is still very vigorous. Young trees can take a lot of abuse and not skip a beat. I am all for taking your time on but in this case I don't thing the extra effort is worth it.

After thinking about it further I might even venture to say that cutting around it with a spade would be worse than collecting it. Since you don't know what the roots really look like you may end up severing more than the tree can recover from. Remember that it is also competing with other trees. By collecting it now you have full control over its recovery.

 

[JoeR]

Hey Joe,

Virginia pine are, in my opinion, under utilized for bonsai here on the east coast. I have one I collected a few years ago, it was growing in solid clay and was so starved for nutrients that it was dying and what foliage was on it was lemon yellow.

I have done no styling to it yet just gave it good care watched it's growth habits. It will probably get first styling this fall. I've managed to reduce needle length to less than 3/4 of an inch on mine.

Go ahead and plant your seeds.

With the sapling you can prepare it for collection down the road. To promote feeder roots near the base spread some time release fertilizer like Osmocote or similar around it. If you don't do the trench method then you can take a shovel and just slice a ring into the ground around it without lifting any soil. Add more fertilizer inside this ring next spring. Watch the new growth and candle prune as needed to keep it compact. Then it should be ready to collect by the following spring. This is an extremely cautious approach but is most sure to succeed.

Hope this helps,

Bob O

Wow, that is very short. Did you reduce it by only giving it minimal water? Anyway, ther are two saplings in a ten foot radius of the mature tree so I think I will dig one up and leave the other one alone. I collected what I beleive is a juniper recently and put it in one of the containers nursery trees come from and didnt touch the roots or soil. Would this be appropriate for the pine as well?

 

[Bob O]

I water as normal but give no fertilizer until after the needles have hardened off, even then low nitrogen.

Bob O

 

[Eric Group]

Wow, that is very short. Did you reduce it by only giving it minimal water? Anyway, ther are two saplings in a ten foot radius of the mature tree so I think I will dig one up and leave the other one alone. I collected what I beleive is a juniper recently and put it in one of the containers nursery trees come from and didnt touch the roots or soil. Would this be appropriate for the pine as well?

Just try to get as much of the rootball as you can...

I collected a Virginia Pine last year around September from my brother's property in Va, and it was kind of sparse an unhealthy looking- I only got a few roots honestly, it was in a hard packed sand and clay soil, so the roots just grew long and weren't close to the trunk, and after digging ALL the dirt fell from the roots! I wrapped it as best I could in some landscape cloth with a little dirt, watered it and drove it all the way home just sure it would die. I planted it in a shallow container with a coarse Bonsai mix... Mainly because it was an already stressed tree and honestly, I knew it would die So I didn't want to waste a bunch of expensive dirt on a dead twig... Nope, it was fine, and loves the soil I put it in I guess! A few copper treatments this Winter/ Spring and a steady diet of ferts, and it is doing fine. I don't think it is hard to shorten the needles, they are naturally short and seem to reduce just from being in a pot from what I can tell.

 

[JoeR]

Well, I was on my way to dig the tree up and ran into A few issues. Not only is it a huge, and I mean huge, task to dig it up, but I beleive there are some styling issues. I envisioned an informal/formal upright, however when I was examining it I noticed the top has a very strange crook/bend whereas the rest of the tree is fairly straight. I am digging it up early tomorrow anyway along with some other assorted potensai growing on the creek bank and will post pictures of it and what I beleive is an eastern red ceder I collected.