Alex A.
Seedling
This just in....
Last (ever?) Mirai Tree Sale
- Thread starter Alex A.
- Start date
Applicative
Mame
here's a small blurb describing mirai
" Operating out of St. Helens, Ore., Neil is the founder of Bonsai Mirai. The company sells a few trees on request, but its primary mission is to service those who already participate in the 800-year-old Japanese art of carefully guiding tiny trunks, by pruning and training, to grow into the wizened old trees they were meant to be."
Ryan has mentioned he does not sell trees to the public. it's possible these trees are "mirai" etc. additionally he's mentioned a lot there is no money in selling trees.
They have large catalog of material for education.
Seems a bit like Ryan personally has one side that the creative single person bonsai practitioner, and another "focus" for mirai. /shrug
" Operating out of St. Helens, Ore., Neil is the founder of Bonsai Mirai. The company sells a few trees on request, but its primary mission is to service those who already participate in the 800-year-old Japanese art of carefully guiding tiny trunks, by pruning and training, to grow into the wizened old trees they were meant to be."
Ryan has mentioned he does not sell trees to the public. it's possible these trees are "mirai" etc. additionally he's mentioned a lot there is no money in selling trees.
They have large catalog of material for education.
Seems a bit like Ryan personally has one side that the creative single person bonsai practitioner, and another "focus" for mirai. /shrug
TrevorLarsen
Chumono
There is no money in selling trees? That seems like a very odd thing to say.
Applicative
Mame
he says it on the podcast very often. his point is compared to the cost and time and effort to produce trees of his caliber, you can't make a living. Your selling at a loss. he states the only viable to make a living is through education.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Not surprising. Mirai wasn't selling a great number of trees anyway. Online sales, shipping etc. of large bonsai is likely more trouble and cost than its worth. I'd be interested in hearing how the One Tree Project fits in.
My take (I could be totally wrong) is that the non-profit angle will very likely mean even higher prices to purchase his trees in the name of preservation........it will be interesting to see the impact of the non-profit??
In the context of charging $1000/hr (a recent quote) for your services its no wonder he sees no profit in selling trees....
In the context of charging $1000/hr (a recent quote) for your services its no wonder he sees no profit in selling trees....
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
The money in bonsai isn't in selling trees. It isn't in services or education. It's in paid online subscriptions - where you create a piece of content and can sell it to thousands of viewers for $12/month.
And I want to be careful when I say "the money". No one does bonsai to get rich. Considering the time Ryan or Bjorn spent training and apprenticing, had they spent the same number of years getting a finance undergrad and an MBA, they'd be way ahead of the game. I have said all along that content creation is a difficult path - because you are usually only as good as your last video.
That said, we've been watching this transition for years now. Mirai opened as a bonsai nursery. Then it became a nursery that did streaming videos. Then they closed the nursery to the public and it became a museum that required reservations and charged entrance fees. Now they have become a "brand" with a strong conservation focus - with Ryan as the Creative Director. He's the Taylor Swift of bonsai - with a lot of people willing to pay top dollar just to own a tree that he looked at. It is fascinating to see the evolution. I first met Ryan when he had just returned from Japan and hadn't located grounds for his nursery yet. In fact, at one point there were just two or three of us walking the GSBF Exhibition floor, talking about the trees very informally. I don't doubt if the same thing happened today, the exhibition hall would be reservation only, and would be packed to the gills with people craning their necks to catch a glimpse of the guy. It will be interesting to watch Ryan's continuing evolution, and to follow the path he takes compared to Bjorn. I respect both - but they could not be more dissimilar.
And I want to be careful when I say "the money". No one does bonsai to get rich. Considering the time Ryan or Bjorn spent training and apprenticing, had they spent the same number of years getting a finance undergrad and an MBA, they'd be way ahead of the game. I have said all along that content creation is a difficult path - because you are usually only as good as your last video.
That said, we've been watching this transition for years now. Mirai opened as a bonsai nursery. Then it became a nursery that did streaming videos. Then they closed the nursery to the public and it became a museum that required reservations and charged entrance fees. Now they have become a "brand" with a strong conservation focus - with Ryan as the Creative Director. He's the Taylor Swift of bonsai - with a lot of people willing to pay top dollar just to own a tree that he looked at. It is fascinating to see the evolution. I first met Ryan when he had just returned from Japan and hadn't located grounds for his nursery yet. In fact, at one point there were just two or three of us walking the GSBF Exhibition floor, talking about the trees very informally. I don't doubt if the same thing happened today, the exhibition hall would be reservation only, and would be packed to the gills with people craning their necks to catch a glimpse of the guy. It will be interesting to watch Ryan's continuing evolution, and to follow the path he takes compared to Bjorn. I respect both - but they could not be more dissimilar.
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Colorado
Masterpiece
I can’t keep up with Mirai. I miss the days of “Super Tuesdays” on the live stream, etc. Then they stopped doing the live streams in favor of the app.
Now it seems like it’s shifting away from bonsai altogether to focus on conservation (?). The message posted in the OP seems kind of cryptic. I don’t get it…..
Now it seems like it’s shifting away from bonsai altogether to focus on conservation (?). The message posted in the OP seems kind of cryptic. I don’t get it…..
Dabbler
Chumono
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I get it - hats off to him as whatever it is, he's created something from nothing and trying to support his family and employee's through his passion of art and nature. I still remember watching him as a kid with no money studying in Japan - he's come a long way and done a lot on a very very niche art.
Wood
Chumono
Very interesting. I wonder if the other ceramics/tools/stands sales will move under this nonprofit too. It's being referred to like it's already A Thing, but I couldn't find anything on the Mirai website or on Ryan's personal website. There are a lot of similar search results: "project one tree", "one project tree", etc. https://theonetreeproject.org/ seems to be a defunct grad school project?
His personal site (r-neil.com) is really leaning into the artist side of things recently. Seems like the domain name was registered on 6/22/2024?
In a handful of the recent podcasts I've listened to, it sounded like he has fewer employees than he used to, and that the Apical Ag nutrition stuff is more labor-intensive than expected. I wonder if that's related
His personal site (r-neil.com) is really leaning into the artist side of things recently. Seems like the domain name was registered on 6/22/2024?
In a handful of the recent podcasts I've listened to, it sounded like he has fewer employees than he used to, and that the Apical Ag nutrition stuff is more labor-intensive than expected. I wonder if that's related
Applicative
Mame
one of the latest podcast he mentioned being extremely energized about returning to more traditional bonsai was aesthetics - he mentioned that he does so much naturalistic styles stuff that the more traditional has become the *exotic* and he is excited to merge the two.
Wood
Chumono
I found that part kinda funny. He's been so vocal and unyielding that American bonsai needs to break away from the traditional Japanese model, but now he's embracing it. I'm not really expecting him to publicly eat humble pie about it though
Alex A.
Seedling
Yes, can anybody shed light on what this shift in focus for Ryan means exactly?
Alex A.
Seedling
I had assumed Mirai trees sold like hot cakes, at least this thread sure made it sound like it. https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/mirai-tree-sale.61314/
We all know Ryan can charge his premium I figured he of all people could make it worth the effort.
vp999
Masterpiece
I don't buy that "he's losing money selling trees" one bit, It's not like he train those trees for 30+ years him self because he is not that old .....He gets premium materials that most of us don't get in first place and spend a few years at most refining it and sells it for a lot more than any other artist with similar material. Ryan is one of the best at what he does but I just dont' buy that...Just my 2 cents.
vancehanna
Chumono
John Naka once said” To make a million bucks in bonsai: Start with a million bucks!”
leatherback
The Treedeemer
It is what I also hear in Dusseldorf, where they struggle to make a decent living out of the nursery, museum and school they run. And that is right in the middle of the heartland of German industry.
Many people underestimate what it takes to run a bonsai nursery. Trees do not make money. Even 10K trees.
These also need daily watering, wiring, repotting, refining. That can make up to a workweek a year. Do that for 5 years.. Lets put it at a modest 3 weeks of work. For one tree. Take your salary for that period. Would 4K take-home a month be fair for a nursery owner? So 3K in net salary for 3 weeks of fulltime work?
Double it for income taxes, health insurance, Sales tax. => 6K
Add another say 50% to pay for the nursery and all that comes with having it all set up. => 9k
Then add your 3-5K purchase costs.
What must that tree cost to make a living? => 9-11k
Now look at 50-250 buck trees that most people will buy. You can really only afford to buy wholesale and resell within the season.
Anything special needs to have a significant pricetag.
Assuming it does not die on you.
Many people underestimate what it takes to run a bonsai nursery. Trees do not make money. Even 10K trees.
These also need daily watering, wiring, repotting, refining. That can make up to a workweek a year. Do that for 5 years.. Lets put it at a modest 3 weeks of work. For one tree. Take your salary for that period. Would 4K take-home a month be fair for a nursery owner? So 3K in net salary for 3 weeks of fulltime work?
Double it for income taxes, health insurance, Sales tax. => 6K
Add another say 50% to pay for the nursery and all that comes with having it all set up. => 9k
Then add your 3-5K purchase costs.
What must that tree cost to make a living? => 9-11k
Now look at 50-250 buck trees that most people will buy. You can really only afford to buy wholesale and resell within the season.
Anything special needs to have a significant pricetag.
Assuming it does not die on you.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
That yearly sale (or occasional sale) did sell trees, but not enough to sustain a business for 12 months, particularly a high-profile biz like Neil's. I also hear the same thing from friends who own a bonsai nursery. VOLUME is needed to sustain a tree-selling biz, like hundreds, or thousands (ask Brussel Martin) of trees a year. Dozens of high end trees can't fill that gap. My friends moved out of selling bonsai in favor of instruction and planning and installing gardens.
Bonsai Forest
Omono
Over the course of the last 10 or 12 podcasts, Ryan has mentioned beginning new projects. One with a curator (Chris Baker, I think) for a collaboration on their next phase of Bonsai/conservation/public education:
Podcast episode here: https://bonsaimirai.podbean.com/ (and part 2 where the idea comes to fruition):
bonsaimirai.podbean.com
and the other was the completion of a video/TV series that Lindsay Farr began many years ago when Ryan was still apprenticing in Japan:
bonsaimirai.podbean.com
Ryan discusses beginning a kickstarter project to raise money to fund Lindsay so he can complete his TV series on Bonsai (might have been a 10 or 15 episode series, which began with visiting and interviewing Mr. Kimura).
When Ryan had both of these individuals on his podcast, they discussed undertaking these projects together and both Chris and Lindsay said they were on board with these endeavors. This could have something to do with stepping back from focusing on selling and delivering trees for a while.
Podcast episode here: https://bonsaimirai.podbean.com/ (and part 2 where the idea comes to fruition):
Bonsai Mirai: Asymmetry | Bonsai Mirai
Bonsai Mirai is a company, a place, a practice, an ecosystem of creators. This is our outlet for discussion of all things bonsai and beyond.
and the other was the completion of a video/TV series that Lindsay Farr began many years ago when Ryan was still apprenticing in Japan:
The World of Bonsai with Lindsay Farr: Part 2 | Bonsai Mirai: Asymmetry
In the second part of our conversation with bonsai legend Lindsay Farr—creator of the "World of Bonsai" series, we delve deeper into the hidden world of bonsai worldwide. Lindsay expands on various intricate topics, shares his plans to complete his unfinished project, and discusses how our...
Ryan discusses beginning a kickstarter project to raise money to fund Lindsay so he can complete his TV series on Bonsai (might have been a 10 or 15 episode series, which began with visiting and interviewing Mr. Kimura).
When Ryan had both of these individuals on his podcast, they discussed undertaking these projects together and both Chris and Lindsay said they were on board with these endeavors. This could have something to do with stepping back from focusing on selling and delivering trees for a while.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
that would be a little late. THe project is pretty much funded by an initiative of Lindsay himself. But maybe the interview is older
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