Large Winged Elm

[justBonsai]

I've been watching this winged elm at my local bonsai nursery for over a year. It was at a steal of a price and I kept telling myself if no one bought it the next time I visited, I'd take it. I finally stopped fussing over it and bought the tree.

Its a fairly old tree, at least 50 years or more. I'm a big fan of winged elms for their bark as well as spectacular fall display so I'm happy to have picked one up.



There are many significant structural problems with this tree and I will be rebuilding most branches from scratch. You can see some strong inverse taper in the crown as a result of most of the branches originating from the same site.

Secondly there is inverse taper at the base (currently cut off) that I will easily remedy with a grown layer this growing season.

I thinned out the crown a lot removing branches with strong vertical movement or from any overcrowded node sites. Some branches I probably will let grow freely all next season before a hard cut back.



There is still a lot more I'd like to cut back too but I am wary that the tree will not backbud on old wood. Can anyone experienced with winged elms comment on their back-budding behavior? @Zach Smith

If you look at the left secondary trunk almost all of the branches are originating from the same spot. I'd to rebuild that subtrunk completely but I am concerned that if I cut back hard I'll lose the whole thing.

Same thing with the crown. I'm confident that on younger strong branches backbudding will be easy but if I cut to the trunk will the tree produce new buds or branches out of the old bark? Looking at the main trunk you can see a strong bulge in the upper section. I'd like to remedy this by removing the incriminating branches as well reducing the wood. These trees grow fairly vigorous here so I'm not too concerned about creating large wounds that will not heal over.

All in all I just wanted to get some feedback and more advice before I proceed further. It's an old tree with lots of character but also a lot of neglect. I'd like to respect it but at the same time set it on a sustainable path for a better image in the future.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

My elm, which I think is cedar elm, but could be winged bark elm back buds in th fissures between old thick barked wood. It also budded on the base when exposed from soil.

 

[sorce]

That's a piece with about 6,042 paths.

Each pretty wicked.

Lotta brain sweat.

Nice.

Sorce

 

[justBonsai]

Cleaned up some more. A lot of branches need to buy rebuilt so I cut back hard. Left some regions long as I want to play it safe until I have new growth to cut back further to. I was able to reduce the inverse taper issues somewhat by removing offending branches and cutting back with knob cutters.


The decided to cut back the apex. Too coarse and no movement. As an apically dominant tree it will be easy to grow back. The tree will not look good now but will be better in the long run.

Also hoping for good back budding in the spring that all give me some lower branching. Because this tree was allowed to grow apically dominant some of the weaker lower branches died back.



I have not touched the sub trunk yet and need advice on it. Pretty much all the branching comes from single knob at the top. I want to cut the whole upper part off and rebuild the subtrunk from back budding. I'm a little worried if I do the chop the tree will just give up on it and divert energy to the main trunk.

Too risky? Better options?

 

[sorce]

I would totally try to layer or cuttings the top fatties sections. Look like great starts.

You don' have to worry about killing a trunk I reckon.

Path 3,509....

Hit it harder.

Sorce

 

[justBonsai]

I would totally try to layer or cuttings the top fatties sections. Look like great starts.

You don' have to worry about killing a trunk I reckon.

Path 3,509....

Hit it harder.

Sorce

Haha that's a lot more adventurous than what I had in mind. Of course the option always exists to chop everything off and build everything from scratch. I think there is enough there for me to work with to build a very nice realistic looking elm tree. Not every tree lends itself to the classical image so well with horizontal branches along the length of the trunk. Here is one of my favorite decidious trees displayed at the recent Hwa Fong exhibition in Taiwan (image from bonsai empire) In my opinion its the ideal deciduous bonsai and a very realistic image as well.

Of course my tree won't end up anything like this but I use it as inspiration when I think about branch placement and how to build them. The branches I have remaining on the tree are ones left after removing any overly thick, leggy, growing strictly upward/downward, oriented in the crown, crossing, or extra branches coming out of the same node site. There are still some glaring issues like the heavy crown, lack of good lower branches, and of course the subtrunk. I am hoping backbudding next growing season will give me good branch selection for me to replace the problem branches on the right now. Hopefully at the end of the next growing season I can do more defined cut backs and a basic styling. Until then it'll look pretty wack.

The way the this tree was maintained for many years was just cutting back to its outer silhouette. It looks great during the growing season but horrendous during winter. As far as the subtrunk I think I may have no choice but to chop it. I can't see another way of rebuilding it unless I do grafting.

 

[sorce]

I love that Taiwan tree...

No reason you can't get yours there....

But with the inevitable ground layer....

Why not consider option number 1,340?


All I'm saying is....
You have about 100-200, fully customizable via layer, angle options alone.

I'd be leaving a lot on now to grow dem roots.

Chunk it slow to see if you get lower buds....

But I reckon this thing can be near 30ft tall before you need to make any decisions much passed the planting angle.

Having wings don't make it much less ULMUS I reckon!
Ceptin Fer how they land right when they fall from eye high!
I noticed mine from VA spring growth had no wings, but then the summer flush produced wings.
Something to think about...
Wire before "summer dormancy" so you are not battling wings, and it can set while it rests, before them new wings come.

Love this tree too iffin you caint tell!

Sorce

 

[Ryan H]

Check out the thread by @markyscott on his winged elm. He was posting on it recently. No reverse taper problems but definitely hard cutbacks and lots of good tips

 

[namnhi]

I see a couple nice shohin size trees and the taper less trunk in this one. Since it is an elm, the taper less trunk can be develop in a few years. How long does it take for an elm to layer? 6 weeks?

 

[Velodog2]

I’d chop/layer much lower. Still too much elephant trunk left with the option shown.

 

[Velodog2]

 

[Bonsai Nut]

San Gabriel Nursery tree!

I agree with @Velodog2 . I don't think either trunk will work in its current form. I would airlayer off both, and then come spring you will have three trees! And for what it's worth, if this tree is anything like typical San Gabriel trees, the roots will have been untouched for a decade or longer. You may have some unpleasant surprises lurking under the soil level in that nursery pot. Air-layer first, then work on the stump and the roots

 

[Zach Smith]

I've been watching this winged elm at my local bonsai nursery for over a year. It was at a steal of a price and I kept telling myself if no one bought it the next time I visited, I'd take it. I finally stopped fussing over it and bought the tree.

Its a fairly old tree, at least 50 years or more. I'm a big fan of winged elms for their bark as well as spectacular fall display so I'm happy to have picked one up.

There are many significant structural problems with this tree and I will be rebuilding most branches from scratch. You can see some strong inverse taper in the crown as a result of most of the branches originating from the same site.

Secondly there is inverse taper at the base (currently cut off) that I will easily remedy with a grown layer this growing season.

I thinned out the crown a lot removing branches with strong vertical movement or from any overcrowded node sites. Some branches I probably will let grow freely all next season before a hard cut back.

There is still a lot more I'd like to cut back too but I am wary that the tree will not backbud on old wood. Can anyone experienced with winged elms comment on their back-budding behavior? @Zach Smith

If you look at the left secondary trunk almost all of the branches are originating from the same spot. I'd to rebuild that subtrunk completely but I am concerned that if I cut back hard I'll lose the whole thing.

Same thing with the crown. I'm confident that on younger strong branches backbudding will be easy but if I cut to the trunk will the tree produce new buds or branches out of the old bark? Looking at the main trunk you can see a strong bulge in the upper section. I'd like to remedy this by removing the incriminating branches as well reducing the wood. These trees grow fairly vigorous here so I'm not too concerned about creating large wounds that will not heal over.

All in all I just wanted to get some feedback and more advice before I proceed further. It's an old tree with lots of character but also a lot of neglect. I'd like to respect it but at the same time set it on a sustainable path for a better image in the future.

Winged elms backbud very well on old wood so you shouldn't have any problem in that regard. Do the major pruning in late winter.

 

[halfclueless]

Hey Julian, I eyed that tree for awhile also. Here was my plan if I didn’t get a huge elm earlier this year. You could have airlayered the top of the main tree, which would have made an awesome shohin. Airlayer the smaller branch to make a windswept or slant style and what velodog2 suggested on the lowest section. Essential 3 trees. I hope no matter what direction you go it will show back up here one day.

 

[CasAH]

Julian, the only thing of value in the tree are the trunks. The branches are crap, air layer it like others have said, the lower the better, especially the sub trunk. I personally would air layer that to next to nothing and use its stump for a first branch after reducing the main trunk by at least 2/3s. Than I would go about rebuilding the tree branch by branch. I would also rebuild the branches on the layers, as most of the branches are not well placed or growing in the proper direction.

You may want to start a forest with the branches you remove if you are feeling ambitious.

 

[justBonsai]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Airlayers the main trunk would produce a good tree and I could start working the base in 2 seasons. I examined the smaller sub trunk more and there are some old node sites from pruned branches. This gives me confidence that it will backbud but I'll wait until late winter before I do major cuts in that area.

I took some better day time pictures. I really like to be creative with this one and see if I can build a convincing realistic looking elm tree. I've done so many air layer the last 2 years and some conventional chop and grow stuff that I want to do something different. I think there is some potential to explore utilizing some of the existing primary branching. If it doesn't pan out I can chop later.

I'm taking a lot of inspiration from the collected Hawthornes out in the UK and how they build those trees. Not every one has the most dramatic of taper but they still are able to achieve a convincing image.

For now I think the right choice is for me to try my plan and ground layer. If I decide to separate the trunks I still will need to ground layer the base due to inverse taper and the cement block of old roots. Will be easier to do with a lot of growth feeding the girdle. If I did the airlayers first I'd need to give the tree a season to divert energy and growth to the lower section and then to subsequently build roots.

@Bonsai Nut I very well know how crazy the root systems out of San Gabriel Nursery come. Usually takes me at least 2-3 growing seasons to rebuild them. On this tree the root ball is a cement block. I don't even plan to touch it. The new root system will either be produced by ground layering or if I decide to separate the trunks, airlayering.

 

[justBonsai]

This is what I have in mind. It seems plausible and would be an interesting project instead of a more conventional design. I welcome any opinions or criticism.

 

[justBonsai]

Hey Julian, I eyed that tree for awhile also. Here was my plan if I didn’t get a huge elm earlier this year. You could have airlayered the top of the main tree, which would have made an awesome shohin. Airlayer the smaller branch to make a windswept or slant style and what velodog2 suggested on the lowest section. Essential 3 trees. I hope no matter what direction you go it will show back up here one day.

Yeah I was thinking of a nice shohin. As well. Been wanting some bigger trees though so I'll see if I can work my alternate design.

 

[CasAH]

This is what I have in mind. It seems plausible and would be an interesting project instead of a more conventional design. I welcome any opinions or criticism.
View attachment 171857

Jason, I think both trunks are too straight and boring to make much of a tree out of this virt.

After spending the day with you at the Midwest Bonsai show this Summer, I feel you will not be happy with the final design in the virt.

I recommend you tear this thing down and build off of the first six inches of the trunk to build the best tree.

 

[justBonsai]

Jason, I think both trunks are too straight and boring to make much of a tree out of this virt.

After spending the day with you at the Midwest Bonsai show this Summer, I feel you will not be happy with the final design in the virt.

I recommend you tear this thing down and build off of the first six inches of the trunk to build the best tree.

Who is Jason?

Fair enough, you may be right. Either way I'll have to do the ground layer to produce usable roots at the base. During the time it takes for me to separate the tree I'll think over everyone's suggestions and try to create the best route for the tree.

I could just chop right away and begin development this season but the upper trunk is worth saving so if I go the chop route I'd rather airlayer them.