Large Trident Progression Help

[Hawke84]

Hi all,
ok so I picked up a new tree but im struggling with exactly what i want to be honest. it doesnt look right to my eye but i cant work out why and what to then build on. I literally havent touched it so just studying it (other than spraying for fungus - cheers seller)
My aim and the reason i bought it is that it reminded me of one of Peter Adams trees that I really liked and that i guess is my aim.

My first issue is choosing a front for the tree. what feels like the designed front doesnt feel right, the first lower branch is moving away to the back which makes it feel odd.
I know the little branch on the left needs to go if this is the front however im keeping it in case i need it to build on, saves me a graft!

im curious on some constructive help on where i can build, chopping it back heavily to a stump isnt something im going to do with this. I am considering removing the top portion to shorten but maybe for this year just remove the thick branches up top and see how it looks with a finder more profuse branch structure up in the canopy as its a bit open and unnatural.

let me know thoughts

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Build a tree from the bottom up. This appears to have a very good nebari and base, some taper and decent movement. You have a trunk-finished tree, with no visible scars up front. You chose a good tree, and now your job is to find the best front, and begin to develop secondary branches and refine the tertiaries.

If you rotate the tree just a bit clockwise to the green arrow, it may soften the chops circled in blue and give the trunk a smoother appearance. Over time it will soften more. You may also move the apex to the right a little as shown in the blue arrows. Take your time and you’ll be happy with what you have over the next few years.

 

[Hawke84]

Build a tree from the bottom up. This appears to have a very good nebari and base, some taper and decent movement. You have a trunk-finished tree, with no visible scars up front. You chose a good tree, and now your job is to find the best front, and begin to develop secondary branches and refine the tertiaries.

If you rotate the tree just a bit clockwise to the green arrow, it may soften the chops circled in blue and give the trunk a smoother appearance. Over time it will soften more. You may also move the apex to the right a little as shown in the blue arrows. Take your time and you’ll be happy with what you have over the next few years.
View attachment 306506

thank you this is helpful and good feedback which makes me feel a bit better about the choice. the price was great. so you think that works better as a front? ive got it on a very visible bench and i keep spinning it!
i am wondering if it needs to be shorter but im not going to go at it with a saw until im sure. right now im feeding it like mad to try an get some more budding on the older wood up in the apex.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I personally don't think it needs that much work. I would eliminate your lower left branch, and develop the lower right side of the tree. Reduce the foliage mass on the left side so the tree is more balanced. Note that this is based on a 2D image of the foliage mass... and it is difficult to tell which way the trunk leans, or for that matter, how effective the lower right branch will be as a new primary. I probably wouldn't keep the lowest branch in the front of the trunk, though right now it helps to fill in some void space that can eventually be filled by your new primary branch as you develop it. You would also want to make sure you wire both lowest branches so they sweep down. Right now they are horizontal.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Brian & BNut have a better eyes toward design than I do. Their advice sounds good, I'd probably start with Brian's advice, you can always remove the lowest branch later.

About "feeding it like mad", I would not do that. Your tree is moving from development towards refinement. At this stage, short internodes are important. You do not want rapid coarse growth. "Feeding like Mad" can lead to long coarse growth and giant leaves.

I am not growing trident maples but I am growing Amur maple, pretty similar in its response. Feed lightly or not at all in spring through until after your first serious prune of the year, after the summer solstice. Your heaviest feeding should be late summer or even early autumn. That is when the energy will go into next year's buds and back buds. Then in spring and early summer, you "starve" the tree, to keep internodes short and leaves smaller.

Obviously if the color of the leaves goes to pale yellow, or yellow with green veins, you are not feeding enough. You do want to have rich light green foliage. So if the foliage gets pale, do feed lightly.

At least that is what I am doing for my Amur maples.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

so you think that works better as a front? ive got it on a very visible bench and i keep spinning it!
i am wondering if it needs to be shorter but im not going to go at it with a saw until im sure. right now im feeding it like mad to try an get some more budding on the older wood up in the apex.

Rotate it to that front, snap another photo and let’s see. Maybe.

You can always shorten it and remove branches later. I thought the same as BNut, but would probably wait to remove them until you know for sure where your front will be.

On feeding: I do actually feed my tridents “like mad”. They grow hard, and I cut them back hard, so I feed them hard. My climate is s
also very conducive to this treatment. Not saying Leo is wrong, but I do feed aggressively.

 

[j evans]

I just want to say that I like the tree. Yes, every tree can be made better but this is a nice start.

 

[Hawke84]

thank you guys, this is the best advice!
I had a call with Peter Warren on this tree earlier in the week. his advice was to shorten it which i can see.
@Bonsai Nut I really like the image you have done. immediately that looks like a better tree to me. and something i can work towards. It hadnt crossed my mind removing the lower branch, mainly because then the primary becomes a branch from the back. i cant tell what else you have edited, have you just cleaned up the branches on the left?

@Leo in N E Illinois its lacking some vigour and its fighting off a fungus so feed with molybdenum to help it fight it off. also higher balanced feeding my usual approach is to feed heavily if i am planning to make changes to the structure to get some back budding. I will cut them back at least twice in the growing season for where i am as i am fairly warm and sunny. but yes agree i dont want to be fighting massive leaves and inter-nodes.

 

[sorce]

I think the trunk is good.

The branches are whack though, like they were built with this ignorant "ramification is everything" mindset, with absolutely no thoughts of actual branch structure.

Topiary.

I would highly consider starting them over, perhaps, all the way off, at least half way off.

The point of the first fork is to put folaige in 2 places. Each fork after, 2 more places.

When there are so many forks, and folaige in one place, that's shitty structure.

It is healthy, and you can do better. Though you may have to erase that PA tree from your idea, I think that will free your creativity.

Better to contemplate this now than later.

Sorce

 

[MHBonsai]

Sweet tree. I like it. This is what I'd do, crappy MS paint version. Chop the top. New apex. Shorten branches, and fill the new space.

 

[Smoke]

Fix the massive fungus first. You will get twig die back soon enough with out fixing.

 

[Hawke84]

Fix the massive fungus first. You will get twig die back soon enough with out fixing.

your article has helped me. its having treatment at the moment.
any tips on getting rid of this other than systemic treatment and not wetting the leaves?

 

[NOZZLE HEAD]

Which fungus are you fighting?

 

[Hawke84]

Be

Which fungus are you fighting?

Believe it's Anthracnose

 

[NOZZLE HEAD]

The systemic fungicides are the best things to give the tree a fighting chance.

thiophanate-methyl products give really good control, but I normally use a combo of active ingredients.

 

[Smoke]

your article has helped me. its having treatment at the moment.
any tips on getting rid of this other than systemic treatment and not wetting the leaves?

Wetting leaves in summer is not a problem. They dry in minutes. What is a problem is the site in which you keep your plants. The more you water because of summer, the wetter and longer it takes to dry underneath the bench. The moisture just radiates up as it drys all day and provides a sauna for the fungus. Elevate the benches to a minimum of two feet off the ground. Plant ground cover under the benches or a thick layer of gravel, not bark. Systemics works, for a while. The plant gets used to it and it stops working after a few weeks. Alternate with spraying and alternate with copper and something else. Having great leaves is easy if you stay on it. If you don't the fungus will be right back. It is 105 here today, 107 tomorrow. I water some of my collection in full sun four times a day. The ground never dries up, it is always wet, I have to stay on it. here are a few tridents and some J. Maples also with absolutely no fungus, no misdiagnosed burnt leaves, which are never burnt, always from fungus, maples leaves do not burn. They die, No water and they turn brown and die, they do not burn around the edges from a lack of water. They are either are green or dead. Picture number five is a variegated trident (Inazuma nishiki ) that is the most fragile leaved trident there is. Not a speck of fungus nor browning on the edges.

 

[NOZZLE HEAD]

Shout out to @Smoke for perfect cultural control of plant diseases no one could have said it better.

For a plant that already has an identified disease problem of a systemic pathogen a systemic fungicide is the only thing that will slow the internal progression of the disease. Copper is one I’ve the best protectant fungicides out there.

 

[Hawke84]

thank you @Smoke & @NOZZLE HEAD , smoke your trees look fantastic!
So is this an issue i am going to be fighting with this tree for its life then? none of my other trees have any kind of fungal issues, and at the moment i dont do anything to treat them preventative, so im apprehensive about introducing it to my collection on the benches if it is going to bring in problems. I know fungus are everywhere so maybe i should be doing more. The new leaves are still getting the fungal browning, so its had another spray.
at the moment i am using Provanto Fungus Fighter Plus (trifloxystrobin & Tebuconazole )and FungusClear Ultra (triticonazole)

 

[Hawke84]

@Brian Van Fleet change of angel. the tip branch kinda ruins the trunk line doing that & is sends the primary branch more round the back

 

[Hawke84]

Also @Smoke should i be removing the damaged / infected leaves (its a lot) or just leaving it be and trying to keep it dry to prevent infection of new leaves?