Juniper problems and dormancy in regards to different parts of the country

[amkhalid]

I think we can agree that here in the northeast, we might gain some benefit if the growing season was longer. It is not a cold issue, but the time frame could be improved.

Here is my scenario. Around here, temps can still be in the 40's right before or even into June. Now, I live somewhat near the water, it is actually colder, mostly due to wind at my house. People are amazed that just a few towns over, their temps are sometimes close to 10 degrees warmer than at my house and no wind. My junipers tend to not get going until later in the season. This year, due to the prolonged cold and repottings of several of them. They really did not start growing vigorously until August. That's right, August. Sometimes we get out first frost in October. Sometimes we have temps near 70 degrees F going into November. It is always changing. As far as this year. It appears my junipers are only going to enjoy about 2 1/2 months of good growing. This does not give them a lot of strength going into Winter. All in all, we make do with what we have.

Rob

Yes this is very true. My junipers did the same. They did not really get going until about July. Now they are in full swing and growing nicely.


Perhaps with species like RMJ that are from colder climates this is not so much of an issue going into Winter as much as others from warmer climates that may need a longer growing season?

I'd just like to give a shout out to my cold weather homies. Really, we have it pretty good. Why? Because we can grow pretty much anything. If I lived in an area where I couldn't grow larches, I'd be pretty sad.

That being said Rob, I think we've been lucky up here in that I haven't noticed the juniper problems you've been battling. Although I'm pretty aggressive with preventative systemic pesticides (but also responsible, I'd like to think).

As for late start Junipers... I find what you and Mach say is definitely true for J. chinensis varieties. They just grow so darn slow here and need some real heat to get going.

RMJ on the other hand I find get going much quicker, usually requiring their first cutting by the first week of June (keep in mind I am in zone 6a).

Larch (probably my favourite species) are just freaking awesome. I know this thread is about junipers, but you've got to give a tree credit that starts growing when there is still snow on the ground. Gotta love the natives. It's too bad I can't get you trees Rob because I would cut you an awesome deal on a collected larch. I know you could do great things with one.

 

[Dav4]

Perhaps with species like RMJ that are from colder climates this is not so much of an issue going into Winter as much as others from warmer climates that may need a longer growing season?

Down here, my RMJs actually grow through the winter, but take a good chunk of July and August off- not this year, though as it was quite cool here this summer. Here are some pics taken about 5 months apart... first pic after last major restyle, December of 2011, second pic from April, 2012.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

My shimpaku junipers don't get any winter protection here in Bham...zone 7B, they sat on the full sun benches for the last 2 winters, and under the benches before I realized they didn't need to. The foliage has never turned bronze on me, so it's likely they're not even getting close to reacting to whatever cold they get...lows in the low 20sF. Coldest I've seen here was 13F, and those not in the ground were mulched under the benches without any issues.

I ran an experiment on siting, full sun vs. some shade on two identical shimps and learned full sun was better. http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/shimpaku-and-sun-exposure/

My Iowa buddy moves all of his trees to a heated garage for the winter, southern exposure sunlight, and a heater that kicks on to keep an even 38 F all winter. In the summer, he gives them mostly full sun. His are healthy, but a little bluer than mine.

 

[ABCarve]

I think we can agree that here in the northeast, we might gain some benefit if the growing season was longer. It is not a cold issue, but the time frame could be improved.

Here is my scenario. Around here, temps can still be in the 40's right before or even into June. Now, I live somewhat near the water, it is actually colder, mostly due to wind at my house. People are amazed that just a few towns over, their temps are sometimes close to 10 degrees warmer than at my house and no wind. My junipers tend to not get going until later in the season. This year, due to the prolonged cold and repottings of several of them. They really did not start growing vigorously until August. That's right, August. Sometimes we get out first frost in October. Sometimes we have temps near 70 degrees F going into November. It is always changing. As far as this year. It appears my junipers are only going to enjoy about 2 1/2 months of good growing. This does not give them a lot of strength going into Winter. All in all, we make do with what we have.

Rob

Another story if you can stand it. The San Jose I recently posted, two years after it was first styled (1993) I noticed its weird foliage but didn't know this was normal (Rob, I didn't know until you told me). I said to myself..."this here San Jose must be one of them there warm weather Junipers, bein' from San Jose and all". So I put it in the greenhouse for two winters. Temps ramped from 48 night to 60 deg day, warmer if I get solar gain. That gain is not a lot much living in Dreary Erie. I would describe the environment very close to what cascade described without that extra hour of Florida sun. Results were not good and I almost lost it. I don't know if that hour has anything to do with it. Maybe it was just the change in length of growing season so abruptly. It didn't seem to mind going back to a long winters nap though.

 

[october]

I'd just like to give a shout out to my cold weather homies. Really, we have it pretty good. Why? Because we can grow pretty much anything. If I lived in an area where I couldn't grow larches, I'd be pretty sad.

That being said Rob, I think we've been lucky up here in that I haven't noticed the juniper problems you've been battling. Although I'm pretty aggressive with preventative systemic pesticides (but also responsible, I'd like to think).

As for late start Junipers... I find what you and Mach say is definitely true for J. chinensis varieties. They just grow so darn slow here and need some real heat to get going.

RMJ on the other hand I find get going much quicker, usually requiring their first cutting by the first week of June (keep in mind I am in zone 6a).

Larch (probably my favourite species) are just freaking awesome. I know this thread is about junipers, but you've got to give a tree credit that starts growing when there is still snow on the ground. Gotta love the natives. It's too bad I can't get you trees Rob because I would cut you an awesome deal on a collected larch. I know you could do great things with one.

Thank you. I have been branching out into other species, spruce being one of them. I say that I am probably going to get away from buying any more junipers due to problems. However, deep down, I know that won't be the case. Show me some nice shohin juniper pre material and if it's the right price, it will be coming home with me. You know how I know this. It happened last weekend..lol

Rob
Rob

 

[october]

Another story if you can stand it. The San Jose I recently posted, two years after it was first styled (1993) I noticed its weird foliage but didn't know this was normal (Rob, I didn't know until you told me). I said to myself..."this here San Jose must be one of them there warm weather Junipers, bein' from San Jose and all". So I put it in the greenhouse for two winters. Temps ramped from 48 night to 60 deg day, warmer if I get solar gain. That gain is not a lot much living in Dreary Erie. I would describe the environment very close to what cascade described without that extra hour of Florida sun. Results were not good and I almost lost it. I don't know if that hour has anything to do with it. Maybe it was just the change in length of growing season so abruptly. It didn't seem to mind going back to a long winters nap though.

Yes, this does sound right. I have noticed that San Jose with their rough bark and course foliage don't seem to care how cold it is. I mean, within reason. I have never had them in the single digits. If I did, it was very brief. I don't think the extra hour has anything to do with it, but the higher temps, probably.

Rob

Rob

 

[coh]

Rob,

I'm following this thread with interest (thanks for starting it ). I've only been doing bonsai for 3 years so I don't have a long track record...but I have also been having problems with junipers. I have both procumbens and shimpaku. Both are struggling, have had dieback, don't seem vigorous. No evidence of mites but I have treated proactively just in case. Have also treated with fungicides.

I can say one thing - this year, my shimpakus looked their best just when I brought them out of winter storage. They were vibrant, healthy green. They didn't look that good when I put them in storage, and they went downhill as the season progressed. I can't figure that out. During the winter they were kept in my barn inside a plastic makeshift greenhouse where the temp was kept at/above 27/28 F. They got daylight through the windows, but no direct sun.

I see a lot of similarly unhealthy looking junipers at sales and in club shows, but there are several people around here whose junipers always look fantastic - no evidence of the problems that have been reported on the internet. I'm going to talk to those people at the next club meeting to see if they have any insights.

One last thing about wintering - at the risk of getting in trouble - all I'll say is that good old Jack Wikle has apparently been able to grow healthy junipers indoors under artificial light for many years...without a cold dormant period. See his article at http://www.fukubonsai.com/2b2a2a.html

Here is a snippet from the link:

Now, how about needle evergreens as fluorescent light bonsai? I have heard again and again that junipers (Juniperus spp.) cannot be grown indoors for any length of time. I know that even if I swear here that my two oldest indoor junipers have grown inside under cool white fluorescent light for 21 and 19 years respectively with no outdoor vacations, there will be those who read this and continue to assure their friends that it cannot be done. Admittedly juniper growth is slow under fluorescent light, but they survive and are healthy.

I don't know what (if anything) that adds to the discussion, but I think it is an interesting data point.

Chris

 

[Gary Swiech]

I live in Zone 4a, recently changed from 4b. It is getting warmer here over a 30 yr trend.
We're not experiencing -40ºF anymore but it gets to zero and below although it's not as consistent.

I keep all my Junipers, including Shimpaku junipers in the Garage, in a special room, and keep it at 28ºF. It fluctuates but it doesn't get any colder than that. There is very little light since no plant I grow
needs light below 32º.

They do fine frozen and are very hardy plants. I keep them on the concrete floor so they stay frozen.

Don't prune too late or you may get foliage that will not have time to harden up and withstand Winter as well. So if your a pincher, don't pinch heavy after July. Do it in the Spring, that's when major pruning should take place and let it grow after July.

I hope this helps you.

 

[october]

My shimpaku junipers don't get any winter protection here in Bham...zone 7B, they sat on the full sun benches for the last 2 winters, and under the benches before I realized they didn't need to. The foliage has never turned bronze on me, so it's likely they're not even getting close to reacting to whatever cold they get...lows in the low 20sF. Coldest I've seen here was 13F, and those not in the ground were mulched under the benches without any issues.

I ran an experiment on siting, full sun vs. some shade on two identical shimps and learned full sun was better. http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/shimpaku-and-sun-exposure/

My Iowa buddy moves all of his trees to a heated garage for the winter, southern exposure sunlight, and a heater that kicks on to keep an even 38 F all winter. In the summer, he gives them mostly full sun. His are healthy, but a little bluer than mine.

Thank you for sharing your experience. It is a juggling act between temperature and sun. Since your trees are not exposed to extreme long periods of cold, they would need sun. The problem around here is when the winters are constantly in the 50's yet the trees are in a place that gets no sun. Also, you can't really do the back and forth thing because it might be in the 50's for a week then the next week it is in the single digits. I do tend to leave my trees out as long as possible, usually the end of November. However, I think there were a couple of times that I put them away in December.

Rob

 

[october]

Rob,

I'm following this thread with interest (thanks for starting it ). I've only been doing bonsai for 3 years so I don't have a long track record...but I have also been having problems with junipers. I have both procumbens and shimpaku. Both are struggling, have had dieback, don't seem vigorous. No evidence of mites but I have treated proactively just in case. Have also treated with fungicides.

I can say one thing - this year, my shimpakus looked their best just when I brought them out of winter storage. They were vibrant, healthy green. They didn't look that good when I put them in storage, and they went downhill as the season progressed. I can't figure that out. During the winter they were kept in my barn inside a plastic makeshift greenhouse where the temp was kept at/above 27/28 F. They got daylight through the windows, but no direct sun.

I see a lot of similarly unhealthy looking junipers at sales and in club shows, but there are several people around here whose junipers always look fantastic - no evidence of the problems that have been reported on the internet. I'm going to talk to those people at the next club meeting to see if they have any insights.

One last thing about wintering - at the risk of getting in trouble - all I'll say is that good old Jack Wikle has apparently been able to grow healthy junipers indoors under artificial light for many years...without a cold dormant period. See his article at http://www.fukubonsai.com/2b2a2a.html

Here is a snippet from the link:

Now, how about needle evergreens as fluorescent light bonsai? I have heard again and again that junipers (Juniperus spp.) cannot be grown indoors for any length of time. I know that even if I swear here that my two oldest indoor junipers have grown inside under cool white fluorescent light for 21 and 19 years respectively with no outdoor vacations, there will be those who read this and continue to assure their friends that it cannot be done. Admittedly juniper growth is slow under fluorescent light, but they survive and are healthy.

I don't know what (if anything) that adds to the discussion, but I think it is an interesting data point.

Chris

Junipers, in general, are notorious for branches dying for seemingly (seemingly the key word) no reason. This was taught to me many years ago. In regards to Jack Wikle. I read the same article. Also, I think Jerry Meislik has had success, but I am not sure. However, we need to address their set ups. I mean Jerry's set up is incredible. Halid lights with hoods, climate controlled room, huge windows, air circulation, humidity etc.

Rob

 

[Dav4]

I keep all my Junipers, including Shimpaku junipers in the Garage, in a special room, and keep it at 28ºF. It fluctuates but it doesn't get any colder than that. There is very little light since no plant I grow
needs light below 32º.

QUOTE]

This was how I kept most of my trees when I lived in MA...placed directly on the concrete floor of an unattached garage and pots mulched. No heat control other then opening or closing doors...there were some January mornings when the temps in the garage were 10 F or lower.

 

[pmalelis]

I just got back from Bill V's and when I asked him about his bonsai in the winter he said he brings them in and out of the garage everynight. I am now questioning that i was going to allow my junipers to be burried in snow against my house over winter.

 

[october]

I just got back from Bill V's and when I asked him about his bonsai in the winter he said he brings them in and out of the garage everynight. I am now questioning that i was going to allow my junipers to be burried in snow against my house over winter.

I could be wrong, but I think he might have been referring mostly to his maples. Also, if the maples break dormancy in winter.

Rob

 

[coh]

Most of Bill's trees (including maples) spend the winter in his garage, thermostatically controlled with a minimum temperature of 27 or 28 F. The "moving in and out" takes place in the spring (or possibly late winter) when the trees have broken dormancy and need to be outdoors during the day (for sunlight) but need to be protected from freezing at night. I think, as Rob noted, this is limited to deciduous trees, I don't think the junipers are moved around like that.

Chris

 

[pmalelis]

Most of Bill's trees (including maples) spend the winter in his garage, thermostatically controlled with a minimum temperature of 27 or 28 F. The "moving in and out" takes place in the spring (or possibly late winter) when the trees have broken dormancy and need to be outdoors during the day (for sunlight) but need to be protected from freezing at night. I think, as Rob noted, this is limited to deciduous trees, I don't think the junipers are moved around like that.

Chris

My garage is unheated but attached, so temperatures remain low but fairly constant. However is light really required during dormancy? As it is rarley lit with no windows. Or as vance pointed out to me in the past outside should not be an issue.

 

[coh]

Deciduous trees don't need light when they are leafless. For evergreens...the generally accepted wisdom is that light is not needed if the temperature is below freezing and the pots are frozen. So burying them in snow, for example, would be good because it keeps them cold along with the dark. I think the possible problem area occurs when the trees are in a dark place (like a windowless garage) and the temperature goes above freezing, especially during a prolonged warm spell. Then it might be beneficial for the trees to have light (at least if the root mass has thawed). And it seems with the more irregular winter weather we've had in recent years, these kinds of warm spells have been more common...so perhaps a combination of warmer winters with dark storage is contributing to the problems that have been occurring? This is just speculation on my part.

Peter Warren did a talk in Rochester sometime in the past year and was suggesting that we should be giving our evergreen trees more light during the winter. It makes sense for him, since the climate in England is nowhere near as cold as upstate NY...but perhaps our climates have been tending more in that direction in recent years.

Chris

 

[wireme]

I have had RMJ's sitting on the bench unprotected down to around -5F with no losses. I try not to let that happen anymore though, now they and all my trees are mulched over the pot brim with planer sawdust chips and surrounded with rodent fence around the time temps are consistently reaching freezing levels overnight. I always hope for early and deep snowfalls. I had some drainage issues with a couple RMJ's this spring. Drainage holes encased in frozen sawdust and pots swimming in ice water from the snowmelt for about 3 weeks before I could finally chip the pots out. I repotted those trees this spring and thankfully the roots looked as healthy as anything. This year some space around the drain holes will be included in the plan.
Mp

 

[Paradox]

Sorry I didnt respond earlier to this, but I wasnt feeling well the past few days and havent been reading as much as usual.

Rob, since Im only a few hours south of you, Ive been experiencing much of the same weather patterns the last 2-3 years. I dont know if Ive been lucky or what but my current junipers (2 San Jose and 2 procumbens nana) are all doing fine.

I keep my trees inside an unheated attached, mostly dark garage. They dont get any sun at all.

I did have some wooly scale when I took them out of the garage but that got taken care of quickly with a couple of sprays of insecticide. I didnt treat them with fungicide this spring and I saw no signs of fungus despite the cold, wet spring we had. I also havent seen spider mites or anything else attacking them

Last winter, as an experiment, I kept two other little, J. procumbens outside. They both died, while one of the San Jose right next to them did fine, took repotting and grew well this year.

I had a couple of J. procumbens and one San Jose in the garage they all did well this year.

I hope you figure it out. Like I said, maybe Im just lucky or maybe its because I havent been doing this a long time yet. Whatever it is, Ill keep my fingers crossed that it continues!

 

[John Ruger]

Generally, I never move my junipers from the sun. Where they are situated, they get a strong, fairly direct light. The only time I take them into an unheated enclosed porch is if ice is expected. Never had any negative results from leaving them to the elements.

The main issue catching my attention is some of them seem to lack their usual pep this year. The past few summers, as we all know, were burners. Those junipers didn't mind a bit. This year I'm wondering if the more than usual amounts of rain and humidity has played a part. I'm saying that since I found no indications of scale, mites or other unwanted creatures, nor did I see any outward signs of fungus or molds.

None are at the point of decline...just different, can't pinpoint what it could be.