JBP weak spring growth, cut sacrifice?

SeanS

Omono
Messages
1,546
Reaction score
5,098
Location
Johannesburg, South Africa (SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE)
USDA Zone
9b
I repotted a few of my young JBP a little over a month ago (Southern hemisphere) and one of them has had a weak spring push so far. Many of the buds have swelled but not done much else, while those that have grown have done so weakly. The foliage is also yellowish.

It’s brother is growing amazingly with 2” candles so far after a similar repot at the same time.

Should I cut the main sacrifice off of the weak tree to try to force some growth in the lower part of the tree. I have a 2nd sacrifice that comes off the tree right above the nebari but still have the original tall sacrifice off the top of the main trunk.

(It had rained this afternoon so the soil looks wet, it isn’t usually as wet looking)

IMG_7695.jpeg
IMG_7699.jpeg
IMG_7696.jpeg
IMG_7697.jpeg
IMG_7698.jpeg
IMG_7700.jpeg

The stronger brother

IMG_7701.jpeg
IMG_7702.jpeg
IMG_7703.jpeg
 
I repotted a few of my young JBP a little over a month ago (Southern hemisphere) and one of them has had a weak spring push so far. Many of the buds have swelled but not done much else, while those that have grown have done so weakly. The foliage is also yellowish.

It’s brother is growing amazingly with 2” candles so far after a similar repot at the same time.

Should I cut the main sacrifice off of the weak tree to try to force some growth in the lower part of the tree. I have a 2nd sacrifice that comes off the tree right above the nebari but still have the original tall sacrifice off the top of the main trunk.

(It had rained this afternoon so the soil looks wet, it isn’t usually as wet looking)

View attachment 512669
View attachment 512670
View attachment 512671
View attachment 512672
View attachment 512673
View attachment 512674

The stronger brother

View attachment 512675
View attachment 512676
View attachment 512677
Allow the weaker tree to strengthen before additional work. On the apical leader and the main sacrifice branch reduce the buds to the central main bud plus one smaller side bud.
 
Allow the weaker tree to strengthen before additional work. On the apical leader and the main sacrifice branch reduce the buds to the central main bud plus one smaller side bud.
Thanks @River's Edge I’ll reduce the buds on the sacrifices and watch my watering. It grew well last season so should just be from the repot. I didn’t consider it overly drastic, but it was downsized from a colander to the terracotta training pot
 
Sean, I was watching this video last month. He suggested that in some cases it was necessary to cut the main sacrifice upon repotting. Sometimes for strength, and other because it was cumbersome to keep a tree upright on fresh soil with a huge sacrifice without hurting the new root growth.

 
If you have buds at the first whorl with needles on the main sacrifice, you may could cut back to that (or slightly above) to weaken it w/o losing ALL momentum in the sacrifice. Its the same principle as RE gave, but a little more drastic.
 
If you have buds at the first whorl with needles on the main sacrifice, you may could cut back to that (or slightly above) to weaken it w/o losing ALL momentum in the sacrifice. Its the same principle as RE gave, but a little more drastic.
Not the same principle in my view. The trick is to not take additional steps that weaken the tree further. A cutback at this point will do that. It reduces the number of needles for photosynthesis and require further energy to heal the cut. It also delays the desired effect of trying to thicken the trunk or portion affected by the apical sacrifice and sacrifice branch.
The reduction to fewer buds at the apical tips channels the energy in apical growth with is associated with root formation moreso than the growth of side shoots after cutback. Think influence of higher % of Auxin ( apical buds) as compared to Cytokinin ( side buds).
 
Last edited:
Is it not important to know how much root reduction was done from the colander to the terracotta pot?
 
It grew well last season so should just be from the repot
A couple of comments and observations.
1.The weaker tree shows signs of needle cast. Not much but some that will contribute to the weaker growth. Note the discoloured bands on some of the needles.
2. Check the wiring, it may be cutting in and that will not encourage strengthening. If it was done recently it will contribute to the weakness as well.
3. Reconsider downsizing pots at this stage of development, there is plenty of time before refinement. ( not suggesting a change at this point just a reference for future development plans. I typically move developing JBP to smaller maintenance pots after ten to fifteen years of development. My guideline is basic trunk size, primary branching in place and bud back for compaction and finer branching well under way. Here is a sample picture of ten year old pines still housed in Anderson flats. Trunk size varies from 2 to 3 inch diameter at this point. 50-75 cm.
4. I would suggest maintaining more foliage during development for better results. Heavy pruning and needle reduction during development retards growth and creates weaker trees that respond poorly to bonsai techniques! The needles are the engine that drives development and aids recovery of root formation when repotting.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1493.JPG
    IMG_1493.JPG
    278.7 KB · Views: 35
The approach I have been taught is very close to @River's Edge 's advice.

At this stage, if I had the same tree (the weaker of the two brothers), I'd have a very similar sacrificial leader in terms of size/height, however, it wouldn't have been slowed down at the tippy-top the way this one has been. It would instead be "poodled with a never-interrupted solo'd-out leader at top". In other words, when I decandle a tree like this, I don't decandle that tip shoot.

Re: "poodle" jargon: The sacrificial would be kept very bushy at the tip and stripped of needles and shoots almost (more on "almost everything" below) everywhere else along the sacrificial trunk (hence "poodle"). At the top, just one big singular tip shoot as Frank suggests rather than multiple tips (but I don't chase those extra tips down as they appear, I let them mature and produce for the tree for some time). Fewer auxin emitters at a sacrificial tip seem to help the "keep/future-tree region" of the tree continue to progress (as opposed to regress) while still helping with thickening, root development, budding elsewhere on the tree, wound closing, and any repots that might have to happen. Gary Wood also suggested that the sheer distance between the poodle's tip and the rest of the tree also helps decouple the influence of the poodle from the rest of the tree. I've done some digging in the literature and it does seem that the auxin signal diminishes with distance. The sugar produced at that tip still manges to migrate down to the rest of the tree though.

At Hagedorn's, I've been taught to shoot select and/or chop (depending on where the tree is at) the big sacrificial tip at roughly leaf drop time (give or take a number of weeks depending on how big your work backlog is). Others vary in their timing/reduction approach and get similar or competent results too though. For example Ryuchi Kitadani (in the youtube video linked above) seems to do it at a completely different time of the year (spring + summer). Also, while Kitadani aggressively solos out (selects down to 1 tip shoot) his poodles, Hagedorn will instead keep several mega-shoots up there before reducing -- Both seem to get great results in development goals (thickening, wound-healing, root development, wound-closing). Both seem to not lose what they want to keep down in the retain-region. One critical difference between Kitadani and Hagedorn though is that most of Hagedorn's JBPs that I've seen or worked on are not shohin or even close to shohin. The solo'ing out seems to be more common the smaller the target size is. I study under Andrew Robson as well (some of his JBP training coming from apprenticing under Hagedorn) and his shohin JBPs tend to have more solo'd out, single leader poodles. The bigger the target tree size, the crazier the tip sacrificial is, and the less the retain region seems to mind even while being aggressively decandled. Anecdotally-speaking.

In terms of selection/solo timing, I personally justify keeping the surplus top shoots until leaf drop time with the argument that I want to get whatever current-year productivity I can get before selecting them out, so I never remove these when they're still fresh, however, I have sometimes felt compelled to select out the extras at a non-leafdrop time if I feel like I'm about to lose valuable/useful tiny/weak branches far below (if working at shohin scale). YMMV depending on climate and myriad other horticultural factors.

Regarding "strip almost everything other than the poodle tip itself", I have tried to keep at least 1 extra not-too-strong shoot somewhere half way up to the poodle -- in your picture, this'd be a single small shoot located at that group of needles half way up. This gives me something to "step down to" and maintain at least a little bit of sap flow right after chopping away the poodle. The hope being that anything that is proximate to the base of the sacrificial leader (and/or weak) doesn't die off after that chop. This is an approach I got from Jonas Dupuich and seems to help with the transition. I decandle that step-down shoot to keep it from becoming leader-like unless I'm anticipating a near-term poodle chop.
 
The approach I have been taught is very close to @River's Edge 's advice.

At this stage, if I had the same tree (the weaker of the two brothers), I'd have a very similar sacrificial leader in terms of size/height, however, it wouldn't have been slowed down at the tippy-top the way this one has been. It would instead be "poodled with a never-interrupted solo'd-out leader at top". In other words, when I decandle a tree like this, I don't decandle that tip shoot.

Re: "poodle" jargon: The sacrificial would be kept very bushy at the tip and stripped of needles and shoots almost (more on "almost everything" below) everywhere else along the sacrificial trunk (hence "poodle"). At the top, just one big singular tip shoot as Frank suggests rather than multiple tips (but I don't chase those extra tips down as they appear, I let them mature and produce for the tree for some time). Fewer auxin emitters at a sacrificial tip seem to help the "keep/future-tree region" of the tree continue to progress (as opposed to regress) while still helping with thickening, root development, budding elsewhere on the tree, wound closing, and any repots that might have to happen. Gary Wood also suggested that the sheer distance between the poodle's tip and the rest of the tree also helps decouple the influence of the poodle from the rest of the tree. I've done some digging in the literature and it does seem that the auxin signal diminishes with distance. The sugar produced at that tip still manges to migrate down to the rest of the tree though.

At Hagedorn's, I've been taught to shoot select and/or chop (depending on where the tree is at) the big sacrificial tip at roughly leaf drop time (give or take a number of weeks depending on how big your work backlog is). Others vary in their timing/reduction approach and get similar or competent results too though. For example Ryuchi Kitadani (in the youtube video linked above) seems to do it at a completely different time of the year (spring + summer). Also, while Kitadani aggressively solos out (selects down to 1 tip shoot) his poodles, Hagedorn will instead keep several mega-shoots up there before reducing -- Both seem to get great results in development goals (thickening, wound-healing, root development, wound-closing). Both seem to not lose what they want to keep down in the retain-region. One critical difference between Kitadani and Hagedorn though is that most of Hagedorn's JBPs that I've seen or worked on are not shohin or even close to shohin. The solo'ing out seems to be more common the smaller the target size is. I study under Andrew Robson as well (some of his JBP training coming from apprenticing under Hagedorn) and his shohin JBPs tend to have more solo'd out, single leader poodles. The bigger the target tree size, the crazier the tip sacrificial is, and the less the retain region seems to mind even while being aggressively decandled. Anecdotally-speaking.

In terms of selection/solo timing, I personally justify keeping the surplus top shoots until leaf drop time with the argument that I want to get whatever current-year productivity I can get before selecting them out, so I never remove these when they're still fresh, however, I have sometimes felt compelled to select out the extras at a non-leafdrop time if I feel like I'm about to lose valuable/useful tiny/weak branches far below (if working at shohin scale). YMMV depending on climate and myriad other horticultural factors.

Regarding "strip almost everything other than the poodle tip itself", I have tried to keep at least 1 extra not-too-strong shoot somewhere half way up to the poodle -- in your picture, this'd be a single small shoot located at that group of needles half way up. This gives me something to "step down to" and maintain at least a little bit of sap flow right after chopping away the poodle. The hope being that anything that is proximate to the base of the sacrificial leader (and/or weak) doesn't die off after that chop. This is an approach I got from Jonas Dupuich and seems to help with the transition. I decandle that step-down shoot to keep it from becoming leader-like unless I'm anticipating a near-term poodle chop.
Thanks for the detailed write up @MaciekA

The tippy top hasn’t been/wasn’t decandled. Each season I reduce the spring shoots on the leader to a central shoot and a smaller side shoot. In fall I strip the needles and leave the new buds for the coming spring. Circled is last season’s growth. This spring the buds on the top of the leader have extended slightly, with the central bud not producing many needles but instead a bare neck with another set of fresh buds at the very tip. I’ve never seen it do this before.

Note that I’m in the southern hemisphere so all of this has happened in the last 2 months.

4f64bdcf-2470-4179-90ef-805ba4a19ba3.jpeg
c49881d0-caf4-4b9a-be6f-34cbd2b6c1d6.jpeg
 
Whoa, quite the progressive slowdown! Apologies for missing that detail before I replied.
 
bare neck with another set of fresh buds at the very tip
This can be aa a result of a number of factors. First it is important to remember JBP is a multi flush pine and depending on the length of the season, water, fertilizer and sunlight the growth will vary during development. So even without repotting, or wiring the candle length and needle composition can change. For example I have often experienced a third or fourth extension. They do not compare in length or appearance to the first spring growth extension.
When I first began growing JBP I was using a more moisture retentive soil. tons of fertilizer and overwatering which produced long candles with bare necks and few needles. This can also occur in nature with heavy rainfall in the spring.

Your explanation and the pictures provided make sense to me. Tree weakened by some needle cast, repotting and wiring all within the same year. Plus a sizeable reduction in foliage each year. AKA pruning. I suspect the tree will be fine and recover nicely if left to do so!

My only suggestion at this point is to modify your development technique to keep more foliage and thus end up working on healthier more vigorous trees during the development process. A guideline that I pass on to my students is as follows. Only remove branches or foliage if it interferes with development. the more you keep the stronger the tree and the more choices you have down the road. As you gain experience you will modify that each year. When you have not repotted for a year or two then the pruning will take more of a priority. If you have wired and bent branches you will hold off on repotting and or reduce the pruning.
Bonsai is all about small improvements day by day. Just add those in to your basic approach and the results will speak for themselves.
 
Back
Top Bottom