JBP long internodes

[crab apple]

Is there any salvaging this JBP other than maybe making a very large tree or a literati? Once the second internode gets long. I think I'm starting to figure out how to prevent that but for a few trees it's too late. The very lowest brances are ground level so I'm not counting them, then the first usable branches are about 4 inches up then a blank area of about 6 inches before any more branches, is this thing junk now? Also some branches on other JBPs don't have any growth till about 7 inches out, I know theres not much chanch of them backbudding. I thought you could forget about these for the first couple years but I guess you have to balance the energy from early on.

 

[Paradox]

You could use the tall part as a sacrifice branch until the trunk is as big as you want it and develop the tree from the lower branches.
That is how most pines are developed for Bonsai

I would reduce the branches at the top a a bit to prevent shading of the branches at the bottom (see picture below) or even just wire them up this fall to get them out of the way.
Remove the needles that are along the trunk above also to prevent shading - can do this now.

This fall, wire one of the bottom branches up for a leader for the future tree and the other down as a branch. Put some subtle movement in them
Do the wiring in the fall, dont do it now, its too hot for that kind of work right now

Feed and let it grow. Adjust yearly as needed

 

[SeanS]

What about chopping it and using the branch on the left as the next section of trunk?

 

[Paradox]

What about chopping it and using the branch on the left as the next section of trunk?

If the trunk is the size the OP wants it, sure.
IF a bigger trunk is wanted, Id wait to do the chop

 

[River's Edge]

You could use the tall part as a sacrifice branch until the trunk is as big as you want it and develop the tree from the lower branches.
That is how most pines are developed for Bonsai

I would reduce the branches at the top a a bit to prevent shading of the branches at the bottom (see picture below) or even just wire them up this fall to get them out of the way.
Remove the needles that are along the trunk above also to prevent shading - can do this now.

This fall, wire one of the bottom branches up for a leader for the future tree and the other down as a branch. Put some subtle movement in them
Do the wiring in the fall, dont do it now, its too hot for that kind of work right now

Feed and let it grow. Adjust yearly as needed

View attachment 560989

Sure graft a scion where you would like a branch on the long internode. I would use a twin bud scion that would eventually provide a new apical leader and a primary branch. Keep the upper part as sacrificial leader to continue to grow out the tree and thicken the trunk.
The most effective results would come from bending the long internode to facilitate better positioning of the graft. You already have a bit of a change of direction and taper within the long internode might as well make use of it. This approach is a bit more complicated but can give a great result.

 

[Paradox]

Sure graft a scion where you would like a branch on the long internode. I would use a twin bud scion that would eventually provide a new apical leader and a primary branch. Keep the upper part as sacrificial leader to continue to grow out the tree and thicken the trunk.
The most effective results would come from bending the long internode to facilitate better positioning of the graft. You already have a bit of a change of direction and taper within the long internode might as well make use of it. This approach is a bit more complicated but can give a great result.

Agree grafting is another option but not a newbie friendly technique.
I would seek help from someone that knows how to do it to help/teach you to get a better chance for success

 

[leatherback]

This looks optimally set up for a small to medium sized tree. I agre with previous comments to let the main trunk run and fatten the base.

The LOWEST SMALL branches is what will make your tree, eventually.

Just to make sure you realize.. A healthy Japanese Black Pine will profusely backbud if pruned strongly and at the right time. If you fertilize well now, and prune in late spring back to the 2 strong branches halfway up the trunk, and you clip the green part on those in half, chances are half the trunk below gets buds.

 

[crab apple]

All good points to think about, I have grafted fruit trees succesfully in the past. I guess I will start researching grafting JBP. Also will likely try the backbudding as well.

 

[leatherback]

All good points to think about, I have grafted fruit trees succesfully in the past. I guess I will start researching grafting JBP. Also will likely try the backbudding as well.

Keep in mind.. The lowest, very small, branches just need a few years to grow out into the start of a trunk if you decide to just reduce the tree to that level (for safety, possibly over 2 years). If you do this with proper pruning in place you will in ~5 years have the basic outline of a tree. (Not sure what size tree you are after)

 

[leatherback]

This is a good page to take a look at for you; Telperion farm seems to have been the experts on commercially growing pine bonsai trunks in the US, before a forest fire wiped the nursery out. Anyway, study the foto's and text where Jonas shows how these trunks are grown with a tall leader, and preserving very low growth to build the eventual tree with.

Visit to Telperion Farms - Bonsai Tonight

Plants love Oregon - 100 wholesale nurseries can't be wrong. Many of these nurseries focus on conifers - and at least one grows bonsai exclusively: Telperion

bonsaitonight.com

 

[River's Edge]

This is a good page to take a look at for you; Telperion farm seems to have been the experts on commercially growing pine bonsai trunks in the US, before a forest fire wiped the nursery out. Anyway, study the foto's and text where Jonas shows how these trunks are grown with a tall leader, and preserving very low growth to build the eventual tree with.

Visit to Telperion Farms - Bonsai Tonight

Plants love Oregon - 100 wholesale nurseries can't be wrong. Many of these nurseries focus on conifers - and at least one grows bonsai exclusively: Telperion

bonsaitonight.com

Jonas has advanced the work beyond to a point where his explanations and steps are excellent, particularly for Shohin development. Those interested in improving their techniques and processes should study the posts in the Bonsai Tonight archives. Available for all to learn from.

I think it is important to give a lot of credit to Gary Wood who was a key person instrumental in Telperion's progress developing trees for Bonsai. The owners Chris and Lisa were very supportive and contributed a lot to the overall Bonsai community. Gary also had a knack for making some very nice Bonsai pots. Happy to have some Telperion trees and pots from Gary in my collection. I know there are many others who have benefitted from the Bonsai legacy.
Nice to see the progress is noted and appreciated within the wider Bonsai community.

 

[leatherback]

Gary Wood

name keeps popping up but oddly enough never have seen him or his work!
Thx for the highlight. Contributions need to be recognized.

 

[River's Edge]

name keeps popping up but oddly enough never have seen him or his work!
Thx for the highlight. Contributions need to be recognized.

Well here is one of his pots and one of the trees he helped form the base and trunk movement before I purchased it from Telperion./ Any problems with styling and refinement are mine.
I do believe he was or is a member of BNUT.

 

[Paradox]

Well here is one of his pots and one of the trees he helped form the base and trunk movement before I purchased it from Telperion./ Any problems with styling and refinement are mine.
I do believe he was or is a member of BNUT.

He is still a member and pops in every now and then. Gave me some good advice in my early years when I was unsure and asking silly newbie questions.

Chris Kirk as well. It's a shame they lost everything in that fire and were not able or didn't want to rebuild

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Gary is a class act and a horticulture genius. First bonsai guy I met when we moved to Alabama, and have been fortunate to work with him on a number of occasions over the years. Low-profile social media.

Incidentally to the OP: those long “necks” on your pine’s candles could be genetic and not correctable with training. Some individual trees do not produce needles to the base. If that is the case, you may want to consider growing this as a large tree, grafting, or starting over with something else. Somewhere I learned that long necks and twisted needles are traits to avoid when choosing a pine, since you can’t train away those traits.

 

[Srt8madness]

Gary is a class act and a horticulture genius. First bonsai guy I met when we moved to Alabama, and have been fortunate to work with him on a number of occasions over the years. Low-profile social media.

Incidentally to the OP: those long “necks” on your pine’s candles could be genetic and not correctable with training. Some individual trees do not produce needles to the base. If that is the case, you may want to consider growing this as a large tree, grafting, or starting over with something else. Somewhere I learned that long necks and twisted needles are traits to avoid when choosing a pine, since you can’t train away those traits.

Aw crap

 

[leatherback]

Aw crap

Hm.. you did not help that one take of a coat?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Aw crap

That one seems to have needles to the ground. Are those new tufts a second flush this year? Young trees are erratic, so it might be ok.

 

[Srt8madness]

Hm.. you did not help that one take of a coat?

I didn't, that's the second flush of the year, I think (didn't grow this one from seed myself)

That one seems to have needles to the ground. Are those new tufts a second flush this year? Young trees are erratic, so it might be ok.

Yes, I believe this is the second flush, I received it from CMeg this spring.

I have another planted in ground that is 1 year older, it put out an 16" leader in spring with needles alllll the way along it.