JBP grown from seed. Good start but where to from here

[Dorian Fourie]

In 2009 I planted 10 JBP seeds and I had 3 sprout and grow. Over the years, 3 became 2, and 2 became 1.

I will be the very first to admit that I really struggle to understand the growth habits of JBP. I read up about it but I always find so much contradicting information. Then to add on to that, that I live in South Africa it makes it even harder because the information all stems from the northern hemisphere.

Aug 2009 - October 2010


For the next 4 years I did not do anything with it but leave it in its pot to grow (Yes rookie mistake) By Sept 2014 I had it wired to try and get something done with it.

Sept 2014


By Aug 2015 I decided that it was time to remove the wire and re-pot it into a colander to thicken up. I used the dual colander method that I had read about in one of the bonsai today magazines.

August 2015

 

[Dorian Fourie]

Over the next year, the JBP thrived and grew very nicely.

The JBP had also grown a new bud lower down on the trunk that I have managed not to break off.

Aug 2015 - June 2016


In August 2016 I decided to remove the smaller colander as I was advised that double colander method was flawed and that a single colander was better.

The root growth looked very healthy. I just cut away the colander and planted the JBP back into the larger colander and did not do any root work on the tree.


The bud closer to the base of the trunk has been growing nicely and there was a new bud that had emerged on the lowest branch. I wired the branch backwards so that it does not hinder the lowest bud on the trunk. I have been thinking that that bud should become my future tree and all other branches are sacrificial growth.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

I would go for that too.

 

[Dorian Fourie]

Over the last 2 months (Aug - Sept) the growth has been very good. I am fertilizing like mad and not done any work on it at all. No cutting of candles, no plucking of needles nothing.



This is where my problem comes in now. Where to next? What do I do from here.


My thoughts were that I will eventually remove all growth to the outside of the yellow line and use the bud (Red Circle) as my future tree. Lets hear your thoughts. Sorry that the image has rotated

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Remember that your trunk will stop growing when you cut off the sacrifice branches. How big you want the trunk to be? Start developing the little branch. Keep in mind that there will be a big difference in taper when you eventually cut everything off. You can already chose a sacrifice on your little branch... think two steps ahead.

 

[Dorian Fourie]

Remember that your trunk will stop growing when you cut off the sacrifice branches. How big you want the trunk to be? Start developing the little branch. Keep in mind that there will be a big difference in taper when you eventually cut everything off. You can already chose a sacrifice on your little branch... think two steps ahead.

Hi Dirk

thanks for the feedback. My thoughts are starting to lean towards a shohin size tree but I know that I have to still thicken up that base trunk considerably.

I either have to use the bud on the base of the trunk or the bud that is on the lowest branch (Leaning more to the bud on the base though)

 

[Anthony]

@Dorian Fourie,

risky working on only one tree.

I can give you this -

[1] From our Forestry department - pines like sandy soil - thus we grow in 5 mm silica based gravel plus some aged compost
Pots are porous clay and no deeper internally than 6" [ 15 cm ]

Tests on granite show, rejection by acid loving species, maybe the granite is leaking alkalis [ imperfect volcanic glass
going to clay and sand ? ]

[2] You may go to Ausbonsai and ask for the person who showed how to grow pines from cuttings.
We use a simple mix of peat moss / perlite / and added in 5 mm silica based gravel. Stays moist in our sun [ 6 a.m to 12.00 ]
for cutting light placement. Also a simple rooting powder, little else is available.

[3] We stopped bothering with seed and just do cuttings off of the better plants.

[4] At some point you need to determine when to candle prune for smaller needles. You might be able to mimic Florida,
but reverse for your side of the world.

[5] According to Bonsai Today you can achieve a 3" [ 8 cm ] trunk in 5 years.

Now can you help me ---------- fertiliser -------- how much and how frequently ?

Wishing you much success, and like the double colander bit.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

One thing everyone tends to forget about the Bonsai Today technique and the colander method: the author was going for Shohin size bonsai primarily.

If you want bigger bonsai, growing in the ground develops trunks faster.

A hybrid approach would probably work well: start off with the colander to get the root system off to a good start, then instead up up potting into the second colander, either plant it in the ground or a large grow box for a couple years while the sacrifice trunk does it's work. Then, dig it up, remove the sacrifice, and return it a colander for a couple years. To work on the branch structure.

I suppose that if you still wanted more trunk girth, you could do this process again until you're happy with the trunk, as many times as you like!

A couple years ago, someone did just that at Boon's. Started with the seedling cuttings, then did the colander, then grew in the ground, then back into pond baskets. He sold them at that point. They had 1.5 to 2 inch diameter trunks, fantastic nebari.

 

[Dorian Fourie]

@Dorian Fourie,

risky working on only one tree.

I can give you this -

[1] From our Forestry department - pines like sandy soil - thus we grow in 5 mm silica based gravel plus some aged compost
Pots are porous clay and no deeper internally than 6" [ 15 cm ]

Tests on granite show, rejection by acid loving species, maybe the granite is leaking alkalis [ imperfect volcanic glass
going to clay and sand ? ]

[2] You may go to Ausbonsai and ask for the person who showed how to grow pines from cuttings.
We use a simple mix of peat moss / perlite / and added in 5 mm silica based gravel. Stays moist in our sun [ 6 a.m to 12.00 ]
for cutting light placement. Also a simple rooting powder, little else is available.

[3] We stopped bothering with seed and just do cuttings off of the better plants.

[4] At some point you need to determine when to candle prune for smaller needles. You might be able to mimic Florida,
but reverse for your side of the world.

[5] According to Bonsai Today you can achieve a 3" [ 8 cm ] trunk in 5 years.

Now can you help me ---------- fertiliser -------- how much and how frequently ?

Wishing you much success, and like the double colander bit.
Good Day
Anthony

Thanks so much Anthony. I appreciate the feedback.

With regards to the fertilising, I have 2 fertiliser bag on the tree and then I put down chicken manure pellets all around the tree. Because it is currently growing in LECA and perlite, I found that the fertiliser runs through the mix so there is no chance of fertilising too much.

Hope that helps

 

[Anthony]

Heh heh hee hee Sifu,
@Adair M ,

ever been to a Chinese grocery and see how large a colander can be had.
I am sitting next to one that is 24 inches in wide and they get bigger.

At some point if you use 100 % compost or a variation of say 3/4 compost to 1/4 5 mm inorganic,
if would be as though one were ground growing. Compost is way richer than the ground.
The colander would allow for freely draining soil.

Apartment dwellers unite.

Boggles the mind.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[pitchpine]

Your JBP looks like a future version of one of mine, lol! This was mine in May.

Over the last 2 months (Aug - Sept) the growth has been very good. I am fertilizing like mad and not done any work on it at all. No cutting of candles, no plucking of needles nothing.

View attachment 119002 View attachment 119003 View attachment 119004

This is where my problem comes in now. Where to next? What do I do from here.
View attachment 119005 View attachment 119006

My thoughts were that I will eventually remove all growth to the outside of the yellow line and use the bud (Red Circle) as my future tree. Lets hear your thoughts. Sorry that the image has rotated
View attachment 119007

 

[Adair M]

Heh heh hee hee Sifu,
@Adair M ,

ever been to a Chinese grocery and see how large a colander can be had.
I am sitting next to one that is 24 inches in wide and they get bigger.

At some point if you use 100 % compost or a variation of say 3/4 compost to 1/4 5 mm inorganic,
if would be as though one were ground growing. Compost is way richer than the ground.
The colander would allow for freely draining soil.

Apartment dwellers unite.

Boggles the mind.
Good Day
Anthony

A large grow box is a substitute for the ground. Not as good, but if you don't have access to a plot of ground, it's better than a small pot.

Yes, Anthony, I have seen the large colander. I own a couple.

There is more to "in the ground", than just the soil. "The ground" is able to keep soil temperatures more consistent, available moisture more consistent, unrestricted root expansion.

Just like anything, there are benefits and drawbacks to any technique. It is up to us to do the things to maximize the benefits and minimize the drawbacks!

In Japan, land is scarce. Many bonsai enthusiasts live where they have no access to land or gardens, and so they rely entirely on container gardening. I don't know, but it's entirely possible that the whole "colander technique" was intended for that audience!

There are bonsai nurserys in Japan that do have plots of land with rows and rows and rows of pines in the ground, so I know they develop them in the ground. The pictures I've seen of them tend to be the larger bonsai, rather than the Shohin. At least for JBP. The pictures I've seen of the JWP fields show smaller trees. But I think that's a function of the difference in growth rate between JWP and JBP.

I believe on Eric's thread "A few pine seeds 6 years later", he shows a few of his trees he started in colanders, then moved them up to grow boxes. I think the reason he went to boxes rather than in the ground is he thought he might be moving, so wanted to keep them portable.

 

[namnhi]

Dorian,
From what I see, you can have a nice shohin tree by having the main trunk and one of the branch from the first whorl. The other branch can be used as a primary branch. Anything above that is sacrifice so you can thin them out a bit so it will not shade the part you want to keep. If you want a bigger trunk then leave it there for awhile. I would decandle the part you want to keep except the new leader. You want to keep it there so the transition between the actual trunk and that branch will be smoother...create nice taper. Just my 2 cents

 

[Adair M]

Dorian,
From what I see, you can have a nice shohin tree by having the main trunk and one of the branch from the first whorl. The other branch can be used as a primary branch. Anything above that is sacrifice so you can thin them out a bit so it will not shade the part you want to keep. If you want a bigger trunk then leave it there for awhile. I would decandle the part you want to keep except the new leader. You want to keep it there so the transition between the actual trunk and that branch will be smoother...create nice taper. Just my 2 cents

I guess it all depends on what style Shohin you're after.

The twisty contorted kind don't make good "box top" trees.

But, if you want a twisty, contorted, "yamadori style" Shohin, you need to really put some curves and twists in. More in the trunk, and branchs, too.

Your tree is still young enough to bend more. And, honestly, aluminum wire just isn't strong enough to do the job. Get some good annealed copper. And also, I think doing the whole trunk in raffia is overkill. Young trees are much more flexible than old ones. As long as you only bend so that the wire is on the outside of the curve, you should be fine.

Now, to show what I mean about really bending the trunk, here's mine:



I'm changing the front next time I repot to something like this:



And probably change the potting angle, too.

I don't know if you'll be able to see anything in this picture, but you put in crazy curves in the branches, too.

 

[namnhi]

I guess it all depends on what style Shohin you're after.

The twisty contorted kind don't make good "box top" trees.

But, if you want a twisty, contorted, "yamadori style" Shohin, you need to really put some curves and twists in. More in the trunk, and branchs, too.

Your tree is still young enough to bend more. And, honestly, aluminum wire just isn't strong enough to do the job. Get some good annealed copper. And also, I think doing the whole trunk in raffia is overkill. Young trees are much more flexible than old ones. As long as you only bend so that the wire is on the outside of the curve, you should be fine.

Now, to show what I mean about really bending the trunk, here's mine:

View attachment 119049

I'm changing the front next time I repot to something like this:

View attachment 119050

And probably change the potting angle, too.

I don't know if you'll be able to see anything in this picture, but you put in crazy curves in the branches, too.

View attachment 119051

Nice but too extreme for my liking.

 

[Adair M]

Nice but too extreme for my liking.

Yeah, I don't really like it either!

But, some people do. So I have one to show my students how it's done.

The problem with Dorian's tree, and making it into a shohin, is the distance between the soil and the first branch. The first branches have to be really low. Especially on a Japanese Black Pine.

You see, traditionally, JBP Shohin are used as the "top of the box" tree. It's supposed to be a powerful tree, with a stout trunk. Now, it's placed on the top of the box. Which puts it up high. So high, in fact, that you may actually be looking up at it from below when you view the display. But, we don't want people looking up under the branches when they view the display. So, we pull the branches down. Now remember, it's supposed to be an informal upright JBP, not a cascade or semicascade. So, there's a limit to how much pulling down we can do!

So... what am I saying with all this? The first branches need to be low. No more than two inches off the soil to make an effective JBP Shohin!

If the first branch is any higher than that, forget Shohin, and go for a taller style!

Unless... you want to make a twisty little tree. Like mine above. That tree is more of a "novelty" styling rather than a traditionally styled tree.

 

[Anthony]

@Dorian Fourie and @Adair M [ Sifu ]

Back reading at Bonsai Today [ 20 - 1992 -4 ]

page 47. It is seen that the Japanese knew and understood the air pruning information. As the author recommends the
colander for such. Because one can apply very large quantities of fertilizer and water. Additionally he is adding very high levels
of organic material to an inorganic soil mix.
____________________________________________________________________________

When he adds the second colander, he does so for the thickening that will take place with the surface roots.
_____________________________________________________________________________

This will also enable the tree to continue growing all over.

The air pots make use of 100% compost [ or the word maybe English for a soil mix]

Add on the Bonsai Today information on the speed of growth in a clay pot 3" of trunk in 5 years.
What is being done is using a genetic factor of the J.B.pine to thicken like a Ficus in a pot.
No need to ground grow.

The grow box does not offer the air pruning qualities of an air-pot and possibly a colander.

Additional J.B.pine seeds maybe selected for special qualities - trunk thickening being one.

We do have seeds that out performed the others, growing very tall in 6" x 2.5" deep pots.

Pity Dorian didn't have more plants to test the double colander technique.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[namnhi]

Adair,
Not trying to disagree with you but you do seem to have a lots of rules.... Which I think will help you get you to the next level. Does shohin trees need to be displayed in a group? I personally think each tree is individual so I don't get am not restricted to how low/high the first branch has to be. My goal is to get that tree looking as good as it can be. Can't speak for others but I am in this hobby because it relaxes me. So whatever I think the tree will look better then that is what I will do. Having all these rules... No body likes rules right?

 

[Adair M]

Adair,
Not trying to disagree with you but you do seem to have a lots of rules.... Which I think will help you get you to the next level. Does shohin trees need to be displayed in a group? I personally think each tree is individual so I don't get am not restricted to how low/high the first branch has to be. My goal is to get that tree looking as good as it can be. Can't speak for others but I am in this hobby because it relaxes me. So whatever I think the tree will look better then that is what I will do. Having all these rules... No body likes rules right?

Ah... rules. The subject of much discussion here on the 'Nut!

Usually, Shohin are displayed in groups. There's just not enough "there" to make an effective display all on its own. There's lots of discussion about this particular topic on several threads in this forum. And lots of good discussion.

But, let's start with the word "Shohin". Here in the US, the definition is "a bonsai 8 inches or less from soil to top of tree". I think in Japan, it's 10 centimeters. Why 8 inches? I have no clue. There is a smaller size: mame. Bonsai that are small enough to rest in the palm of your hand.

Now, can you "get away" with showing a tree that's 8.5 inches tall? Probably. 10 inches? Probably not.

I know everyone is not into showing. So for them I suppose it doesn't matter. But, who knows... maybe someday they would want to. And then, it would be a shame to have a fabulous 9 inch tree that can't be shown as Shohin. So, whereas you don't have to follow "the rules" it pays to be aware of them. And if you want to break them, be aware of the possible consequences. Then again, maybe knowing the rules would stretch someone into shortening a tree just a little... maybe it's hard to do, but the extra effort to conform to the rules makes you work just a little bit harder to shorten internodes, reduce leaf size, shorten needles, flatten nebari, etc.

In the long run, the effort required to "follow the rules" may improve your skills as a bonsai artist. It has with me.

And then, once you master those rules, THEN you can break them. For art.

Otherwise, "not having to follow the rules" due to laziness or incompetence is, well, you decide what it is.

So, I challenge you to follow the rules. The rules, by the way, usually have a reason for why thy exist. Did you understand my discussion of what makes a good "box top" JBP? All those "rules" are are simply a way to express what we perceive as an attractive display as opposed to what may be an inferior display.

 

[0soyoung]

But, let's start with the word "Shohin". Here in the US, the definition is "a bonsai 8 inches or less from soil to top of tree". I think in Japan, it's 10 centimeters.

I always forget these things, so just for reference

Shohin - under 25 cm (10 inches) tall
Mame - under 10 cm (4 inches) tall

There is also a limit on the horizontal dimension but rarely does one see a grape vine, for example, in a mame pot that presses those limits. Perhaps @Smoke knows.