JBP air layer removed!

[Graydon]

I have a correction:

The hormone I used was 3% IBA not 0.80% IBA. I just noticed it in the fridge and realized I made a mistake in my post.

It's the same stuff I made and sent my extra to Brent, Tom and Chris.

Sorry for the confusion... on my part.

 

[bonsai barry]

I have a correction:

The hormone I used was 3% IBA not 0.80% IBA. I just noticed it in the fridge and realized I made a mistake in my post.

It's the same stuff I made and sent my extra to Brent, Tom and Chris.

Sorry for the confusion... on my part.

You make your own hormone powder? Please share the receipe!

 

[Graydon]

You make your own hormone powder? Please share the receipe!

Um... it's 3% IBA powder by weight added to 97% pure unscented talc by weight. Mix well. Apply as needed.

Check out this old thread for more details Barry, it's all there so no need to duplicate it here again.

When I made it I was unable to find Hormex #30 for sale. Apparently it's back again so I doubt I would go thru the process again. It was a nice exercise in finding supplies and making something that was simple. It was also much cheaper that the Hormex product.

 

[JSKII]

Where would ya find this Hormex #30? So far, on the 'net, I can find the liquid solution or Hormex #1 powder.
Graydon, that is one fine JBP!

 

[irene_b]

Where would ya find this Hormex #30? So far, on the 'net, I can find the liquid solution or Hormex #1 powder.
Graydon, that is one fine JBP!

Hormex website..
or www.shadysidebonsai.com
Irene

 

[JSKII]

Thanks mom. Guess I'll have to contact Hormex for prices as they do not list them with their products. And Tom's site has nothing on Hormex.

 

[Tachigi]

Steven, We have it in stock. The page will be going up shortly. I'm putting the finishing touches on it. If you need it right now drop me a line.

 

[JSKII]

Ah that is why I didn't see anythin LOL. What strengths do ya have? Evergreen(pines, junipers, etc)? Decidous(maples, beech, hornbeam, etc)? Sizes(amounts)? Prices? Email me at kainmojain@hotmail.com if ya want. May try some airlayering on some beech and hornbeams before I dig up any. And yes I'm still goin for the "Monster" LOL. But he's 2 yrs away for now. Thanks in advance. Steven

 

[FourMileMarc]

I am a little late in finding this thread and I am very intrigued by your success. This is one of three landscape junipers I collected back in october. They are all natural rafts and on this one in particular I am going to need to eventually remove the one on the right with the red arrow. I wish to air layer it because it has good potential by itself so I think I will try your method with the collander. Just a couple of questions if you do not mind. I have never air layered before.

1. Do you girdle all the way around not leaving anything but heartwood in the entire circumference?

2. From what I read so far I need to remove the cambium and the phloem and leave the xylem intact. Is this brain surgery, seems real easy to go too deep or not deep enough.

3. Drying the area for how long, how dry and how many applications of alcohol?

4. I do not have the book on propigation yet so am I correct to assume that hormex #30 is correct for junipers as well?

Sorry for all the questions it is just that if I can become successful in this technique it opens up many doors in situations like these.

Cheers

 

[Graydon]

1. Do you girdle all the way around not leaving anything but heartwood in the entire circumference?

Yes, otherwise the area left uncut would throw scar tissue and eventually bridge the cut over. Must be all the way around.

2. From what I read so far I need to remove the cambium and the phloem and leave the xylem intact. Is this brain surgery, seems real easy to go too deep or not deep enough.

No - not brain surgery. It's a natural thing, it just peels off correctly. Try it on another tree branch harvested from your yard (or a neighbors...).

3. Drying the area for how long, how dry and how many applications of alcohol?

Hmmm. I dried it a while. I don't think it matters as long as you don't forget about it for a few days. One good wipe with the alcohol was good (you know those little packs like wet naps? That is what I used. Same thing nurses use to prep before taking blood or giving a shot).

4. I do not have the book on propigation yet so am I correct to assume that hormex #30 is correct for junipers as well?

I don't know Mark. I have not layered a juniper. Perhaps someone who has layered a juniper can tell you.

 

[FourMileMarc]

Thanx graydon

 

[ianb]

4. I do not have the book on propigation yet so am I correct to assume that hormex #30 is correct for junipers as well?

That may be a little strong, I layered a juniper inadvertently a couple of years ago. When making a large bend I wrapped with raffia then wrapped the raffia with electrical tape. When I took this off after a year the branch had rooted into the raffia.

Cheers
Ian

 

[Tachigi]

Marc, some examples of Hormex strengths for Junipers are:

Hormex #3 for Juniperus Chinensis Pfitzeriana, Juniperus Sabina Fastigiata
Hormex #8 for various Juniper varieties
Hormex#16 for Juniperus Torulosa
Hormex#45 for Juniperus Tamariscifolia

I would highly recommend Micheal Dirr's book The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation It is loaded with information. The first part of the book gives a summary of the different propagation methods and the second part has very detailed data ( like correct IBA amounts) on specific species. You maybe able to find a used one on ebay. If not you can visit here. I think you will find that our price is, to the best of my knowledge, the least expensive on the web for a new book. Either way it is a worth while investment if you plan on propagating or using hormone in techniques associated to bonsai. Guessing, as I have found out from experience can do more harm than good. More is not always better. With the caveat that in Texas this rule doesn't apply.

 

[FourMileMarc]

Tachigi,

I just visited your site, nice. It seems that there is a very wide range of strengths with different junipers. The one I collected came from your typical landscape and I have no idea the species or cultivar. However I know they are not Torulosa or Tam. Probably a Chinenses. Now, would it be wise to purchas The highest strength Hormex and then cut it down with talc as needed per usage. Like Hormex #45 which is 4.5% IBA and If I needed .8% I could cut it in a 5.5:1 ratio? This would seem better and less expensive than buying every strength.

"More is not always better. With the caveat that in Texas this rule doesn't apply."

How about the entire country

 

[Tachigi]

Marc, If you know that hormone will be a fairly regular staple in your activities. I would say opt for the Dip N Grow also on the site. This is a liquid or gel and can be diluted to the strength you need acurately. Giving you diversity from one container. Nurseries like Monrovia use this exclusively for their propagation.

I have no experience with cutting powdered hormones. I'm sure you can, but I would rather spend my time doing something else productive than figuring out the formulas and tests to make sure that I did it correctly.

Saying all this I use both. Each being best suited for specific applications as they arise. For general purposes covering a broadband of species I will opt for Dip n Grow. Its cost effective and keeps the shelves uncluttered.

One last thing to address your question. If you don't know the species or cultivar to obtain a correct dosage. The rule of thumb is to go with less. To much IBA can do the exact opposite from what you want it to even killing the plant. Dip N Grow has a general formula for people that refuse to buy reference material concerning specifics pertaining to hormone use. It is the following:

For hardwoods, dilute to 5X line.
For semi-hardwoods, dilute to 10X line.
For softwoods or succulents, dilute to 20X line.

This gives you an idea based on types of cuttings what strength you need. Not a fool proof method but better than nothing if you can't reference specifics. In your case a 5X dilution would be applicable for an air layering process.

 

[FourMileMarc]

Thanx Tachigi, I may look into buying the book first once my budget allows.

 

[Graydon]

. Now, would it be wise to purchas The highest strength Hormex and then cut it down with talc as needed per usage. Like Hormex #45 which is 4.5% IBA and If I needed .8% I could cut it in a 5.5:1 ratio? This would seem better and less expensive than buying every strength.
D

Not a good idea unless you have access to a pretty good balance beam or high end digital scale. It's done by weight and not volume. Too confusing as well. Just buy it in smaller units as needed.

Try the dip n grow Tom mentioned. I tried it once and was not to happy with it, however that was my fault not the product. I believe the liquid dip n grow is alcohol based so you may be able to skip a step.

Sunlight and heat are a big enemy to all IBA products. Keep them in a cold dark place until ready for use (fridge is great but make sure they are safely stored if you have young ones...).

 

[FourMileMarc]

This brought up another question on how these hormones work. With layering or cuttings, it seems that the gel or liquid would wash off the area after watering the soil a few times. Does this happen? If so, is that what is supposed to happen? In other words does the plant immediately take up the product and further applications are not necessary? My only experience in propigation is by doing cuttings and with these I just mix NAA/IBA transplant type products as directed in the water jug. I always thought that with products like dip and grow after the first treatment it would just wash off under soil unless you continued to mix a milder solution in the jug for the first few weeks. Mabey the way I have been doing it is overkill, I dunno. My success so far has only been with very easy to root plants.

Thanx for all the info here you guys.

Cheers

 

[Tachigi]

Marc, Talc based products are the easiest to knock off. I personally use a touch of lightly damped sphagnum to wrap the base of the cutting in after the cutting has been dipped. This prevents loss of product as well as getting some antiseptic qualities from the sphagnum.

Liquid and gel forms are for the most part taken up by the cutting during the dip process. Hence you hear terms like a 5 and 15 second dips. That being the time that the manufacturer feels is adequate enough for the absorption of the hormone. Gel is used as a binding agent in different applications in your particular circumstance that being a layer.

Additional applications of products like Dip N Grow are not needed. However, Hormex in some of their literature does recommend a hormone drench later down the road. I guess that is backup to the possibility of Talc not sticking.

 

[Graydon]

In order to avoid washing the hormone powder off I simply do not water for a couple of days. It's not like there are roots in there yet huh? I do water the (akadama, pumice and lava) soil very well, making sure to rinse it clean as I carefully put it in the colander. That rinsing will provide plenty of hold over moisture for a couple of days. Then I water the regular way.

I'm nearly sure Tom is correct and that what the IBA does what it does in an instant. Notice I didn't say completely sure as honestly I have no idea. Don't really want to know as long as the process works.