Japanese white pine help

[River's Edge]

I was just commenting on the comment "JWP are normally considered for medium to larger size Bonsai" I disagree

Simply put, the regular japanese white pine is nothing like the grafted dwarf cultivars that have been specifically developed for Shohin.

 

[Adair M]

Ok, perhaps I can provide some guideance here.

Shohin: yes, the most generally accepted definition is that it’s a bonsai under 20 cm (8 inches), in height.

Now, be aware that also includes “bonsai” in the definition! Bonsai, while literally translated means “tree in a tray”, we all know that it’s more than that.

What the OP has is a two or three year old grafted JWP. It, unfortunately, is al least a decade away from being any semblance to a bonsai.

JWP are slow to develop mature bark, and develop the taper, ramification, and character we associate with “bonsai”. This one is a graft, and is so young, the grafting scar hasn’t even fully healed yet. The stub from the root stock is still sticking out!

Now, I’m not trying to be snobbish, arrogant, or insulting, I’m just trying to share wisdom and experience of having worked with these little trees for nearly a half century.

Putting it in the ground may very well be the right thing to do! Just put something around it so you don’t mow it over!

I don’t think this particular specimen is a good long term Shohin candidate, but it could make a nice medium size tree in time. As Frank said, the first branch is too high off the soil line. With Shohin, we want that first branch to be low, like at the 2 inch level!

And, we only see the portion of the trunk that is JWP. There’s a grafting stock trun under the soil line. Where are the roots? The real nebari? Finding that out is vitally important.

Next, the internode lengths. Pines of all types tend to grow up by sending up a candle. The candle sprouts the needles, and at the top of the candle, it produces buds for next year. These buds usually have one main central bud that tend to grow straight up, and a number of secondary buds that while the grow up, too, they get forced to grow out sideways. These eventually grow into branches. So, a series of whorles develops as the tree grows taller. You can get a very accurate estimate of the age of a tree by counting whorles.

For bonsai, we want the lengths of the internodes between whorles to shorten as the tree gets taller. Unfortunately, young trees that are just starting to grow tend to have lengthening internodes! Just the opposite of what we want in bonsai! This tree is exhibiting exactly this behavior. So, what do we do? Cut off that long trunk section? Well, if we do, that will retard the trunk girth development! Right now, that trunk section is the strongest, and is providing the sugars to fuel the tree. Cutting it off will slow down growth. But, isn’t that what we want? Not really, slowing the growth will keep the trunk thin. Which will make the tree look like a very young tree.

So, instead, I recommend that the section be kept as a sacrifice to fatten the trunk, and designate a branch to be trained to take its place when the sacrifice is removed. When will it be removed? I don’t know, when it has “done its job”. One caveat: don’t wait too long, or else the scar will be huge!

This process of growing out a sacrifice, cutting back, growing out another sacrifice, cutting back, can go on for several decades!

Anyway, I thought I’d give everyone a bit of food for thought.

 

[erb.75]

Obviously the tree in total right now is taller than 6 inches. Isn't the top easily reduced?

 

[River's Edge]

? where do you get this stuff? no branches in the proportion? what about all those that look like they are about 4 inches above the soil?

If the two long branches are four inches above the soil, then the trunk must be less than 1/2 inch in diameter. One might ask where do you get that perspective? It is perfectly fine if you think the tree pictured above is suitable for Shohin. At least the owner of the tree recognized the point that was being made and has a better understanding of the term Shohin. Simply put the scale, even if the two longest branches were four inches off the ground would make the trunk between 1/2 to 1/3 inch in diameter.
Shohin would typically have a trunk of 1/12 inch to 2 inch. The lowest branches would start approximately 2 1/2 inches above the soil. With needle size in proportion to the tree size. That is why the specialty JWP dwarf cultivars, usually grafted on JBP are used, not the standard Japanese White Pine. The standard Japanese White Pine has coarser growth, longer needles and makes an awesome medium to larger Bonsai.
Not sure how you quoted me but also changed the word portion to proportion.

 

[discusmike]

I think people get to caught up in bonsai height and classification, decide what size fits each tree best and go with it,who cares if its shohin,as long as the tree is beautiful,thats all that counts in my eyes.

 

[River's Edge]

Ok, perhaps I can provide some guideance here.

Shohin: yes, the most generally accepted definition is that it’s a bonsai under 20 cm (8 inches), in height.

Now, be aware that also includes “bonsai” in the definition! Bonsai, while literally translated means “tree in a tray”, we all know that it’s more than that.

What the OP has is a two or three year old grafted JWP. It, unfortunately, is al least a decade away from being any semblance to a bonsai.

JWP are slow to develop mature bark, and develop the taper, ramification, and character we associate with “bonsai”. This one is a graft, and is so young, the grafting scar hasn’t even fully healed yet. The stub from the root stock is still sticking out!

Now, I’m not trying to be snobbish, arrogant, or insulting, I’m just trying to share wisdom and experience of having worked with these little trees for nearly a half century.

Putting it in the ground may very well be the right thing to do! Just put something around it so you don’t mow it over!

I don’t think this particular specimen is a good long term Shohin candidate, but it could make a nice medium size tree in time. As Frank said, the first branch is too high off the soil line. With Shohin, we want that first branch to be low, like at the 2 inch level!

And, we only see the portion of the trunk that is JWP. There’s a grafting stock trun under the soil line. Where are the roots? The real nebari? Finding that out is vitally important.

Next, the internode lengths. Pines of all types tend to grow up by sending up a candle. The candle sprouts the needles, and at the top of the candle, it produces buds for next year. These buds usually have one main central bud that tend to grow straight up, and a number of secondary buds that while the grow up, too, they get forced to grow out sideways. These eventually grow into branches. So, a series of whorles develops as the tree grows taller. You can get a very accurate estimate of the age of a tree by counting whorles.

For bonsai, we want the lengths of the internodes between whorles to shorten as the tree gets taller. Unfortunately, young trees that are just starting to grow tend to have lengthening internodes! Just the opposite of what we want in bonsai! This tree is exhibiting exactly this behavior. So, what do we do? Cut off that long trunk section? Well, if we do, that will retard the trunk girth development! Right now, that trunk section is the strongest, and is providing the sugars to fuel the tree. Cutting it off will slow down growth. But, isn’t that what we want? Not really, slowing the growth will keep the trunk thin. Which will make the tree look like a very young tree.

So, instead, I recommend that the section be kept as a sacrifice to fatten the trunk, and designate a branch to be trained to take its place when the sacrifice is removed. When will it be removed? I don’t know, when it has “done its job”. One caveat: don’t wait too long, or else the scar will be huge!

This process of growing out a sacrifice, cutting back, growing out another sacrifice, cutting back, can go on for several decades!

Anyway, I thought I’d give everyone a bit of food for thought.

Thanks Adair you have made some good points.

 

[erb.75]

Simply put, the regular japanese white pine is nothing like the grafted dwarf cultivars that have been specifically developed for Shohin.

obviously dwarf cultivars are better

If the two long branches are four inches above the soil, then the trunk must be less than 1/2 inch in diameter. One might ask where do you get that perspective? It is perfectly fine if you think the tree pictured above is suitable for Shohin. At least the owner of the tree recognized the point that was being made and has a better understanding of the term Shohin. Simply put the scale, even if the two longest branches were four inches off the ground would make the trunk between 1/2 to 1/3 inch in diameter.
Shohin would typically have a trunk of 1/12 inch to 2 inch. The lowest branches would start approximately 2 1/2 inches above the soil. With needle size in proportion to the tree size. That is why the specialty JWP dwarf cultivars, usually grafted on JBP are used, not the standard Japanese White Pine. The standard Japanese White Pine has coarser growth, longer needles and makes an awesome medium to larger Bonsai.
Not sure how you quoted me but also changed the word portion to proportion.

We are not talking about the same tree. You are talking about the tree exactly as it exists right now. I am talking about the tree years in the future after the trunk thickens. I am looking at that tall middle section as sacrifice. I am not saying that the whole tree as it exists right now is 4 inches above the ground.

If you wanted to make a generic informal upright, then yes you would need a branch about 2-3 in. above the soil. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not the ONLY design option.

Obviously dwarf cultivars are better. They will look better no matter if we're doing shohin or something larger. Needles on standard JWP can be significantly reduced and made suitable for shohin. THAT was my POINT! You are definitely not required to use special dwarf cultivars for shoo-in

 

[Adair M]

obviously dwarf cultivars are better

We are not talking about the same tree. You are talking about the tree exactly as it exists right now. I am talking about the tree years in the future after the trunk thickens. I am looking at that tall middle section as sacrifice. I am not saying that the whole tree as it exists right now is 4 inches above the ground.

If you wanted to make a generic informal upright, then yes you would need a branch about 2-3 in. above the soil. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not the ONLY design option.

Obviously dwarf cultivars are better. They will look better no matter if we're doing shohin or something larger. Needles on standard JWP can be significantly reduced and made suitable for shohin. THAT was my POINT! You are definitely not required to use special dwarf cultivars for shoo-in

JWP needles are not as easily reduced as JBP.

JBP needles are reduced by decandling. This forces the tree to send out a complete new set. And by decandling in the summer, they don’t have as long of a growing season to grow before winter dormancy sets it.

JWP cannot be decandled. Oh, you may be able to get away with it once, but it’s more likely to kill the tree! So, they have all year to grow out to their full length. The only thing you can do is to withhold fertilizer until they have stopped growing. When the little sheaths around the base of the needles dries up and falls off. THEN, you can fertilize. But, withholding fertilizer is a dangerous game... JWP are not as vigorous as other trees, and by withholding ferts, you’re increasing the risk!

 

[Adair M]

I think people get to caught up in bonsai height and classification, decide what size fits each tree best and go with it,who cares if its shohin,as long as the tree is beautiful,thats all that counts in my eyes.

That’s true, except if you want to show it in a Shohin display, it has to be Shohin sized!

 

[River's Edge]

obviously dwarf cultivars are better

We are not talking about the same tree. You are talking about the tree exactly as it exists right now. I am talking about the tree years in the future after the trunk thickens. I am looking at that tall middle section as sacrifice. I am not saying that the whole tree as it exists right now is 4 inches above the ground.

If you wanted to make a generic informal upright, then yes you would need a branch about 2-3 in. above the soil. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not the ONLY design option.

Obviously dwarf cultivars are better. They will look better no matter if we're doing shohin or something larger. Needles on standard JWP can be significantly reduced and made suitable for shohin. THAT was my POINT! You are definitely not required to use special dwarf cultivars for shoo-in

I am talking about the same tree and what it can become. I see a graft that is swollen, reverse taper below. The graft is high for a shohin placed on the trunk of the rootstock rather than the roots. It was identified as a Japanese White Pine and appears to be just that. The graft placement alone makes it very difficult to develop as a Shohin.
My point is that this tree would be better developed as a larger tree than a Shohin. You can question my point of view, and call me totally wrong if you like. That is your point of view. My point of view is that Japanese White Pine are more suitable for medium to larger Bonsai.
The fact that specially selected dwarf cultivars of JWP can make great Shohin if grafted low on the rootstock of Japanese Black Pine is irrelevant in this situation.
No one is requiring anyone to do anything nor was that stated or even implied.
I hope you enjoy your weekend.

 

[sorce]

That’s true, except if you want to show it in a Shohin display, it has to be Shohin sized!

When your mind is "On the Box" these things do matter sooooo much!

I have been thinking about Shohin Display for some time....as it is soooooooo my favorite display.

Gonna have to dig up all the info soon, as affording a Box stand, or building one myself, is nearing fast!

Trees are almost ready, skills/garden almost ready to care for better trees...

JWP...the Most Beautiful IMO.

Treasures. Chestless Treasures.

Coal and Lead (ugly grafts and poo poo stains) will never be treasures...
And I...M... brutally respectful to the Japanese Tradition ....O...

We ought'nt parade around coal and lead.

This is not saying this particular tree has a coal and lead outcome...

I believe this tree is beautiful and can/should be made with all efforts into a Treasure.

Which means Burning it if the graft can not become nice by any means necessary.

.....

Don't sacrifice Appropriate for a particular size.

Health First.
Appropriate second.
Display Third.

All the while considering them all.

Sorce

 

[erb.75]

JWP needles are not as easily reduced as JBP.

JBP needles are reduced by decandling. This forces the tree to send out a complete new set. And by decandling in the summer, they don’t have as long of a growing season to grow before winter dormancy sets it.

JWP cannot be decandled. Oh, you may be able to get away with it once, but it’s more likely to kill the tree! So, they have all year to grow out to their full length. The only thing you can do is to withhold fertilizer until they have stopped growing. When the little sheaths around the base of the needles dries up and falls off. THEN, you can fertilize. But, withholding fertilizer is a dangerous game... JWP are not as vigorous as other trees, and by withholding ferts, you’re increasing the risk!

I don't know the in's and out's of JWP. One of our club members has one and it looks 1000% healthy and the needles are so short you'd swear it was zisho cultivar. I'll have to ask him how he does it.

 

[erb.75]

I am talking about the same tree and what it can become. I see a graft that is swollen, reverse taper below. The graft is high for a shohin placed on the trunk of the rootstock rather than the roots. It was identified as a Japanese White Pine and appears to be just that. The graft placement alone makes it very difficult to develop as a Shohin.
My point is that this tree would be better developed as a larger tree than a Shohin. You can question my point of view, and call me totally wrong if you like. That is your point of view. My point of view is that Japanese White Pine are more suitable for medium to larger Bonsai.
The fact that specially selected dwarf cultivars of JWP can make great Shohin if grafted low on the rootstock of Japanese Black Pine is irrelevant in this situation.
No one is requiring anyone to do anything nor was that stated or even implied.
I hope you enjoy your weekend.

OK. Let's stop arguing. Too many people get cranky on this site, and I've probably been a little too cranky today. Haven't been sleeping because I have a new 1 month old in my house.

I think JWP are just fine to make shohin, but I'm not against other sizes (or even saying the best size for JWP is shohin). I'd probably agree that it's better as a medium size tree. But then, isn't every tree better as a medium size tree

I definitely did not see the graft right above the soil line for some reason. It's glaring at me now. How easy are grafts to hide with growing out @Adair M ? I do not grow any bonsai with grafts, so I couldn't tell you.

I also wish you a good weekend

 

[River's Edge]

OK. Let's stop arguing. Too many people get cranky on this site, and I've probably been a little too cranky today. Haven't been sleeping because I have a new 1 month old in my house.

I think JWP are just fine to make shohin, but I'm not against other sizes (or even saying the best size for JWP is shohin). I'd probably agree that it's better as a medium size tree. But then, isn't every tree better as a medium size tree

I definitely did not see the graft right above the soil line for some reason. It's glaring at me now. How easy are grafts to hide with growing out @Adair M ? I do not grow any bonsai with grafts, so I couldn't tell you.

I also wish you a good weekend

Thank you, i remember when my children were that age, over 45 years ago. If i remember correctly it improves with age up until they start going out at night.

 

[Adair M]

Here’s an old picture of my Shohin JWP Mijumi before I styled it. I can’t seem to find a recent styled picture, I’ll take one tomorrow.



It’s grafted on about a 1 inch JBP trunk. And I guess it’s about 4 inches tall above the rim. Needles are 1/2 to 3/4 inch long.

 

[Adair M]

I have several JWP. None are seedlings! Two are Zuisho from airlayers, a Kokonoe that was grafted on JBP at one time but later ground layered new Kokonoe roots so the JBP roots were removed, two different JWP cultivars that are grafted too yamadori Lodgepole trunks, the Mijami pictured above, a grafted JWP on JBP trunk, you know the ones they let the wire cut in on the JBP? It’s one of those. A JWP out at Boon’s that I don’t know the name of! I don’t even have a photo of it! But it has ridiculously short needles! 1/4 to 1/2 inch! It’s just a ball of foliage. I haven’t even thought about how to style it into something yet!

So, yeah, I have a bit of experience with JWP.

No seedlings. Seedlings usually don’t have the pretty foliage we associate with JWP. That’s why we use the grafted cultivars!