Japanese Red and Black Pine Help

[Jason_mazzy]

if you want a very long root system check out these 18inch kidney pond baskets! http://www.amazon.com/Kidney-Pond-Basket-Large-pieces/dp/B009VBWJD0




















But more seriously here is a good one for you: http://www.gigaweb.com/products/view/52110/square-pond-basket-extra-large-14-x-14-x-10-h.html

14x14x10

And this round one is great for training plants going into round pots 9x9 http://www.gigaweb.com/products/view/52105/round-pond-basket-medium-9-x-9-x-5-h.html

 

[Erndogy]

Closer look

View attachment 32955

Ok, your rescued tree is another example of what happens when JBP are treated properly. You have some nice growth down low that you can work with to create a nice bonsai. This diagram shows what I would do with that tree if it were mine. Might be somewhat unrealistic(I dont know the dimensions), but I am assuming the first set of buds(purple circle) is about 4" off the soil and the next set(green circle) is 7-8" from the soil. This diagram outlines a plan for a tree with a final height of about 18". The idea is to create taper and movement in a trunk that has neither currently. Dont think I am putting down your material though! Look up brent's articles on field growing pines, you will see you have a textbook situation. So, the plan is to reduce that sacrifice leader over time(red circle) and encourage green circle buds to grow into the next portion of the trunk. You would then chop that new leader back and grow another bud as the next portion of the trunk.

Sorry Patrick but I just took a second look at your diagram and noticed the part circled in red is actually a branch that is bent down and not low growth on the trunk.. Unless you did know that and designated that as the leader? I guess I should probably start that thread soon with better pics......

Ernie

 

[pwk5017]

Ok, lets try this again. First, lets get on the same page. Is the green circle a collection of 1-2 year old buds coming directly off the trunk? If so, we are all good. Ok, if those are buds coming directly off the trunk that is what i meant as "grow out for new trunk leader" Everything in red will be chopped off at the appropriate time. That is not part of the final tree. It is only sacrifice growth.

 

[Erndogy]

Ok, lets try this again. First, lets get on the same page. Is the green circle a collection of 1-2 year old buds coming directly off the trunk? If so, we are all good. Ok, if those are buds coming directly off the trunk that is what i meant as "grow out for new trunk leader" Everything in red will be chopped off at the appropriate time. That is not part of the final tree. It is only sacrifice growth.View attachment 35238

Got it.
Yes. It is a collection of 1 yr old buds... One small branch with multiple buds.

Ernie

 

[pwk5017]

sweet, you are going to be good to go if you want to follow my plan. How about some dimensions, whats the diameter of the trunk above the soil? Distance from nebari to the green circled buds?

I highly suggest reading jonas' post on developing young pines http://bonsaitonight.com/tag/black-pine/ its the exact plan I am trying to illustrate for you. Do you see where he grew a sacrifice leader, then cut it back after it sufficiently thickened the trunk? Then, he used two young branches to create his first branch and future trunk line? Well, worth the read--the whole blog.

 

[HumbleTrees]

Check out this thread.
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthr...dori-Style-Junipers&highlight=juniper+bending

PWK5017 touched on wiring the seedlings above. I just bought a few from pwk5017 as well and will be bending the crap out of them as soon as they acclimate to their grow boxes. Had I seen this thread before potting them I would have bent them first, while they were still bare rooted.

As of now they are really tall and thin a swing in the breeze like nobody’s business. Squashing them before potting would have saved some headache in firming them up in their training pots.

 

[pwk5017]

Check out this thread.
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthr...dori-Style-Junipers&highlight=juniper+bending

PWK5017 touched on wiring the seedlings above. I just bought a few from pwk5017 as well and will be bending the crap out of them as soon as they acclimate to their grow boxes. Had I seen this thread before potting them I would have bent them first, while they were still bare rooted.

As of now they are really tall and thin a swing in the breeze like nobody’s business. Squashing them before potting would have saved some headache in firming them up in their training pots.

Yes, that is how I anchor all my young seedlings. A tag of 4" of 2-5mm aluminum wire(depending on your trunk diameter) will easily secure a seedling in its container. Also, like I said its a heck of a lot easier to wire them out of the pot, because you can turn the seedling this way or that or invert it when needed. Al's post with the juniper infers that. If his juniper was in a pot, he would have had a headache.

Patrick

 

[Erndogy]

Jbp

sweet, you are going to be good to go if you want to follow my plan. How about some dimensions, whats the diameter of the trunk above the soil? Distance from nebari to the green circled buds?

I highly suggest reading jonas' post on developing young pines http://bonsaitonight.com/tag/black-pine/ its the exact plan I am trying to illustrate for you. Do you see where he grew a sacrifice leader, then cut it back after it sufficiently thickened the trunk? Then, he used two young branches to create his first branch and future trunk line? Well, worth the read--the whole blog.

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you Patrick..

Yeah I'll follow your plan. I took a few pics and got some measurements.

Here is the front of the tree. The highest of the small branches on the trunk is at eight inches.


The trunk is 1 1/2" wide at the base.


Here is close up of the lower branches.


This is the tree at 42"


Ernie

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

You'll definitely want to keep those low shoots strong and healthy. Don't let them get shaded out or starved by the top, sacrificial growth by thinning the top stuff out quite a bit this summer to direct a little more energy to the low growth.

Eventually, you'll identify some sacrifice branches among final branches on the low growth, and be able to begin reducing the top.

 

[pwk5017]

Thats exciting that the low buds exist, thanks for confirming. First off, I want to say I would be all over this for $10. It is a project tree without a doubt--we're talking 5-10 years on this one--but suitable JBP material from nursery stock is a rare bird any day. The fact that this was so cheap just makes it even better.

I agree 110% with brian. The guy knows his stuff. Your primary objective right now is to baby those low buds into more vigorous growth. They look healthy right now, and they certainly wont die off this year or the next, but you need them to be stronger. These buds are your future tree. If you are lucky, when you begin to hack back the top growth, you might actually get more buds to develop down low near the current low buds.

What do you plan on doing with it? Do you feel like you have a solid gameplan to follow?

 

[Erndogy]

You'll definitely want to keep those low shoots strong and healthy. Don't let them get shaded out or starved by the top, sacrificial growth by thinning the top stuff out quite a bit this summer to direct a little more energy to the low growth.

Thats exciting that the low buds exist, thanks for confirming. First off, I want to say I would be all over this for $10...

I agree 110% with brian. The guy knows his stuff. Your primary objective right now is to baby those low buds into more vigorous growth. They look healthy right now, and they certainly wont die off this year or the next, but you need them to be stronger. These buds are your future tree. If you are lucky, when you begin to hack back the top growth, you might actually get more buds to develop down low near the current low buds.

What do you plan on doing with it? Do you feel like you have a solid gameplan to follow?

Thank you for the advice. I was wondering whether those low branches would die off if I kept the top as it is. I have seen it happen on another JBP I have... Which is bigger and has a nice thick trunk with a slight twist. I got that one for $20 from the same guy.(that's another post)

How late into the summer is a good time to cut back the top growth? Should I let it get leggier and cut the smaller twigs near the trunk and leave the buds at the ends of the branches, or should I get rid of the very top of the top growth and leave the two middle branches? You could see the two middle branches in the fourth pic.

I thought I had a game plan for it when I got it. I was thinking it literati, which is why I wired some of the top. I just never had the nerve to chop it.

So no solid game plan.

Ernie

 

[Adair M]

Don't candle prune a branch/runner that you are using to build the trunk. Let it grow. If it starts to shade the tree down below, strip off some old needles from the runner.

Making sure the little branches down low get lots of light and feeding the tree well will keep the lower branches alive. If they're weak, don't candle prune them. If they're strong, you can decandle if you want to start developing ramification on the small branches. THat will also keep them from getting too large (thick) while the runner is building trunk.

 

[HumbleTrees]

Trunk Chops

When is the best time of year to chop large trunks?

 

[Rockwellbonsai]

Hi brian,
How old is the tree in the 4th photo? I think that's what my head was trying to think up of. I really love that style.
Thanks! And the tree looks great!
Porter