PA_Penjing
Chumono
Thank you very much. Sometimes I like it when I look at it, and other times I can’t stand it haha. I think my mistake was working too short. Next literati pine attempt will be a three footer for sure
Jack Pine Progression
- Thread starter PA_Penjing
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GreatLakesBrad
Chumono
How tall is this one?
PA_Penjing
Chumono
forget, I'm at work now. Somewhere between 21 and 23" though I think. It's not tiny or anything but I don't care for smaller pines. Unless I can get well ramified pads with 1/2" needles on this tree I don't think the foliage will ever be in scale with the image. I'm spoiled by spruce, juniper and chinese elm. So easy to "dwarf" a tree when the foliage is already tiny
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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@PA_Penjing
Not meaning to be harsh, but your tree looked best in the first photo, before you started hacking off branches.
I do like this view:
I suggest you slow down. Or get 5 more similar size jack pines so you can alternate who gets "tortured" this summer.
1. Pines in general, even young pines should not be repotted more than every other or every third year. Older trees should be repotted less often. Allow one full growing season with NO pruning for recovery after repotting.
2. Wiring - it is normal for pines to have it take a decade for a branch to hold it's shape. Normal routine is place wire, bend to shape. Tree grows 2 years, wire starts to cut in. Remove wire. Tree starts to spring back out of shape. Re-wire, being careful to either wire with coils opposite direction, across grooves left by first wiring, or carefully wire with wire parallel to old grooves, so to avoid making wire scars worse. Allow second wiring to be in place until wire starts to bite in. Anywhere from one year to 3 years would be typical. Then remove wire. If tree springs back out of shape, wire again. This process of cycles of wire and rewire will go on for a decade or more. Pines stay flexible. They are not like deciduous trees.
3. Young trees, such as this pine, need to grow, in order to thicken trunks and to have the energy to make back buds and to ramify branches. You should have kept the low branches to help thicken the trunk and to help maintain vigorous growth. Even if the will be removed for the final design, keep them - just wire them out to be out of the way. Then wire the ends up so they keep growing.
Pines "compartmentalize", you can have one branch lanky and juvenile looking as a "sacrifice" and a branch elsewhere that has been pruned for ramification and short needles. The lanky "escape branch" will help keep the roots and sap flow vigorous, while the other branch is trained for the final design.
All in all, your tree is "not bad" but would have benefited from "slowing down your roll". You are over-working the tree. Give it recovery time. Try not removing any more branches. Even if you don't see it as part of the future design, let it grow as sacrifice branch.
Your approach graft could have worked if you left it in place for 3 or more years. Though if the branch died, it was likely it was bent too sharply, like kinking a hose, so sap could not flow.
So get a couple more jack pines, so you can let this one recover between techniques. I am encouraged by your enthusiasm. Don't despair. It will come together in time.
Not meaning to be harsh, but your tree looked best in the first photo, before you started hacking off branches.
I do like this view:
I suggest you slow down. Or get 5 more similar size jack pines so you can alternate who gets "tortured" this summer.
1. Pines in general, even young pines should not be repotted more than every other or every third year. Older trees should be repotted less often. Allow one full growing season with NO pruning for recovery after repotting.
2. Wiring - it is normal for pines to have it take a decade for a branch to hold it's shape. Normal routine is place wire, bend to shape. Tree grows 2 years, wire starts to cut in. Remove wire. Tree starts to spring back out of shape. Re-wire, being careful to either wire with coils opposite direction, across grooves left by first wiring, or carefully wire with wire parallel to old grooves, so to avoid making wire scars worse. Allow second wiring to be in place until wire starts to bite in. Anywhere from one year to 3 years would be typical. Then remove wire. If tree springs back out of shape, wire again. This process of cycles of wire and rewire will go on for a decade or more. Pines stay flexible. They are not like deciduous trees.
3. Young trees, such as this pine, need to grow, in order to thicken trunks and to have the energy to make back buds and to ramify branches. You should have kept the low branches to help thicken the trunk and to help maintain vigorous growth. Even if the will be removed for the final design, keep them - just wire them out to be out of the way. Then wire the ends up so they keep growing.
Pines "compartmentalize", you can have one branch lanky and juvenile looking as a "sacrifice" and a branch elsewhere that has been pruned for ramification and short needles. The lanky "escape branch" will help keep the roots and sap flow vigorous, while the other branch is trained for the final design.
All in all, your tree is "not bad" but would have benefited from "slowing down your roll". You are over-working the tree. Give it recovery time. Try not removing any more branches. Even if you don't see it as part of the future design, let it grow as sacrifice branch.
Your approach graft could have worked if you left it in place for 3 or more years. Though if the branch died, it was likely it was bent too sharply, like kinking a hose, so sap could not flow.
So get a couple more jack pines, so you can let this one recover between techniques. I am encouraged by your enthusiasm. Don't despair. It will come together in time.
PA_Penjing
Chumono
@Leo in N E Illinois I don't take it as harsh, I don't disagree with much of what you said. I'll break down why I did what I did so maybe someone reading this can learn from my errors here.
As far as getting more jack pines, I will probably never work with the genus again, if I do maybe a virginia pine or something more suited to my climate that I can collect for free. But I think this is a one off. I had more options before I went rogue on the styling for sure, but like I said, that's a lesson learned. I won't be bailing on plans last minute anymore.
1. Yes pines should not be repotted at the rate that I have been doing it. Since I don't have much love for this tree I didn't mind losing it completely to get it to a less ugly stage.
2. I agree again, I was expecting to leave the wire on longer, apparently I need to learn how to wire looser.
3. There are still a few unneeded branches just for sake of health, but I have/had no interest in thickening the trunk any further. All the literati trees on my bench have thicker than average trunks, I'm actually trying to get comfortable going skinnier in terms of height to trunk ratios for that style. I was originally keeping those bottom branches as options to thicken the trunk or create a smaller tree.
I should slow my roll, and I'm going to now that the tree isn't as wild.
My approach graft seemed to be doing well I should have ignored it. The thumb tack was becoming imbedded in the tree and it made me nervous. In hind sight it's dumb I know. At the time I was all bent up on deciduous trees and not leaving any marks on the trunk, I think it bled over a little.
I give the species a 10 out of 10 for sure. I recommend them to anyone who likes pines, a native with short needles and the ability to survive everything I've done to it in a climate that's warmer than it grows normally. My disdain comes from my own styling errors and the fact that it's a pine haha.
As far as getting more jack pines, I will probably never work with the genus again, if I do maybe a virginia pine or something more suited to my climate that I can collect for free. But I think this is a one off. I had more options before I went rogue on the styling for sure, but like I said, that's a lesson learned. I won't be bailing on plans last minute anymore.
1. Yes pines should not be repotted at the rate that I have been doing it. Since I don't have much love for this tree I didn't mind losing it completely to get it to a less ugly stage.
2. I agree again, I was expecting to leave the wire on longer, apparently I need to learn how to wire looser.
3. There are still a few unneeded branches just for sake of health, but I have/had no interest in thickening the trunk any further. All the literati trees on my bench have thicker than average trunks, I'm actually trying to get comfortable going skinnier in terms of height to trunk ratios for that style. I was originally keeping those bottom branches as options to thicken the trunk or create a smaller tree.
I should slow my roll, and I'm going to now that the tree isn't as wild.
My approach graft seemed to be doing well I should have ignored it. The thumb tack was becoming imbedded in the tree and it made me nervous. In hind sight it's dumb I know. At the time I was all bent up on deciduous trees and not leaving any marks on the trunk, I think it bled over a little.
I give the species a 10 out of 10 for sure. I recommend them to anyone who likes pines, a native with short needles and the ability to survive everything I've done to it in a climate that's warmer than it grows normally. My disdain comes from my own styling errors and the fact that it's a pine haha.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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I understand
About wiring - loose wiring is more likely to break branches than tight wiring, loose wiring can cause kinks, as the bending is not evenly distributed over an arc. Tight wiring distributes the pressure of the bending over the full arc of the bend. It is normal in bonsai to wire tight, then to have to remove the wire, often in less than one year, then rewire again. Wiring loose, is usually "poor technique" and likely to cause more problems than it solves. Most common is a kink, that blocks sap flow in the middle of the arc one is trying to add. Wiring a tree repeatedly is simply part of keeping pines and conifers in general.
Wire tight, it is the correct way to do it.
About wiring - loose wiring is more likely to break branches than tight wiring, loose wiring can cause kinks, as the bending is not evenly distributed over an arc. Tight wiring distributes the pressure of the bending over the full arc of the bend. It is normal in bonsai to wire tight, then to have to remove the wire, often in less than one year, then rewire again. Wiring loose, is usually "poor technique" and likely to cause more problems than it solves. Most common is a kink, that blocks sap flow in the middle of the arc one is trying to add. Wiring a tree repeatedly is simply part of keeping pines and conifers in general.
Wire tight, it is the correct way to do it.
