Silentrunning
Chumono
A very informative thread. Thanks guys. There is a lot of good information to take away here.
Itoigawa Juniper - bad, really bad
- Thread starter DamianTrimboli
- Start date
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
I get the cheapest of the cheapest from India through Ebay. Hot pressing of oils is done to get the last remaining stuff out of the 'cake', for cooking oils this means you'll get the least healthy and least refined material; the poorest quality of the lowest price. With neem it means you get a higher azadirachtin content, the stuff that repells insects.
Since it's not used for cooking in my home, I prefer that stuff.
A small 300mL bottle costs me around 10 usd and lasts a year or 3.
Any brand would do, I guess.
DamianTrimboli
Yamadori
I used oil for plants, it comes with emulsifier and I also used 2 drops of detergent. 
Update: last week I treated the roots with propamocarb for 2 hours, and sprayed the foliage with insecticidal soap (potassium)
this is how the tree looks right now:
If I scratch the branches, they are still all green.. but since it is a juniper I don't think it is something useful to know.
I was thinking on treating the foliage with captan or mancozeb.. what do you think? Apart from all the damage I've done with the oil and the phyton (and probably overwatering since the oil probably reduced the evaporation rate) I think there is a fungal issue too (that's the reason I treated with copper initially)
By the way.. I have a moisture meter, after the propamocarb drench, the soil was 100% moisture, after a couple of minutes it got reduced to 80%, now.. after 5 days, it is 45%.. Its a low evaporation rate for a plant in almost spring, I know.. but also the nucleus of the substrate is soil, not akadama/lava/pumice so the water retention is higher (with lava, after 2 minutes of watering, moisture is 22%)
Edit: I'm keeping it in a small greenhouse to keep humidity higher and reduce the impact of wind
Update: last week I treated the roots with propamocarb for 2 hours, and sprayed the foliage with insecticidal soap (potassium)
this is how the tree looks right now:
If I scratch the branches, they are still all green.. but since it is a juniper I don't think it is something useful to know.
I was thinking on treating the foliage with captan or mancozeb.. what do you think? Apart from all the damage I've done with the oil and the phyton (and probably overwatering since the oil probably reduced the evaporation rate) I think there is a fungal issue too (that's the reason I treated with copper initially)
By the way.. I have a moisture meter, after the propamocarb drench, the soil was 100% moisture, after a couple of minutes it got reduced to 80%, now.. after 5 days, it is 45%.. Its a low evaporation rate for a plant in almost spring, I know.. but also the nucleus of the substrate is soil, not akadama/lava/pumice so the water retention is higher (with lava, after 2 minutes of watering, moisture is 22%)
Edit: I'm keeping it in a small greenhouse to keep humidity higher and reduce the impact of wind
DamianTrimboli
Yamadori
Do you think I should treat it with captan or mancozeb?
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
I suggest you stop treating it at all.
It needs to restore, and overdosing it with antibiotics isn't always good for the tree; it gets in the system of the plant as well, and most antibiotics screw up vital processes. Junipers grow slow, and antibiotics can take weeks or months to have effect. This isn't cannabis, where you can see the effects in minutes.
You put a juniper in high humidity (good for fungal growth) and then treat for fungus (to stop fungal growth). That sounds counter intuitive, right? Water sensors usually suck a lot, especially if they are not calibrated and don't have software that corrects for differences. I think you have one with 1 single metal pin, that you put in the soil right? Those are terrible for measurements. In inorganic soils, the stuff we use for bonsai, there's not always enough contact for electrodes to properly work. A good water sensor has at least two probes, and it measures electrical conductivity. But that conductivity is based on a lot of factors, and that's why usually there's some software involved.
Mineral oils are used for trunks, to stop beetles and other insects from burrowing. It's not meant for foliage. Mineral oils contain no active ingredients that repel insects.
You damaged the cuticulum with the mineral oil, and just when the tree is starting to restore, you destroy the cuticulum with soap.
If you want to save your tree, do nothing except for watering when it needs water. If fungus occurs, let it be. If foliage dies, let it be. This tree has already endured a lot of 'insults'.
Sorry for not being nice today, but I have seen this too many times on gardening forums; people make problems worse by not knowing what they are doing. Shooting mosquitoes with bazookas. They have the right intentions and they REALLY want to save their plant. I know this feeling. But please, just wait it out for a few months. If you keep messing around with it, it's going to die for sure.
I dug up two super huge junipers last year. Easily 1.5 meters of canopy. I potted them up, and they started dying. They lost 70% of their foliage and I did nothing. Then they lost another 10% and I did nothing.
Now, 10 months later, they just started growing again. If I would have repotted them, they would have died. If I would have cut off more branches, they would have died. If I would have treated them with antibiotics, they would have died. But instead, I just waited it out. Next year, they are going to thrive. Junipers are virtually indestructible, as long as you let them be indestructible. If you are going to care for them as if they are sick puppies, they will die.
It needs to restore, and overdosing it with antibiotics isn't always good for the tree; it gets in the system of the plant as well, and most antibiotics screw up vital processes. Junipers grow slow, and antibiotics can take weeks or months to have effect. This isn't cannabis, where you can see the effects in minutes.
You put a juniper in high humidity (good for fungal growth) and then treat for fungus (to stop fungal growth). That sounds counter intuitive, right? Water sensors usually suck a lot, especially if they are not calibrated and don't have software that corrects for differences. I think you have one with 1 single metal pin, that you put in the soil right? Those are terrible for measurements. In inorganic soils, the stuff we use for bonsai, there's not always enough contact for electrodes to properly work. A good water sensor has at least two probes, and it measures electrical conductivity. But that conductivity is based on a lot of factors, and that's why usually there's some software involved.
Mineral oils are used for trunks, to stop beetles and other insects from burrowing. It's not meant for foliage. Mineral oils contain no active ingredients that repel insects.
You damaged the cuticulum with the mineral oil, and just when the tree is starting to restore, you destroy the cuticulum with soap.
If you want to save your tree, do nothing except for watering when it needs water. If fungus occurs, let it be. If foliage dies, let it be. This tree has already endured a lot of 'insults'.
Sorry for not being nice today, but I have seen this too many times on gardening forums; people make problems worse by not knowing what they are doing. Shooting mosquitoes with bazookas. They have the right intentions and they REALLY want to save their plant. I know this feeling. But please, just wait it out for a few months. If you keep messing around with it, it's going to die for sure.
I dug up two super huge junipers last year. Easily 1.5 meters of canopy. I potted them up, and they started dying. They lost 70% of their foliage and I did nothing. Then they lost another 10% and I did nothing.
Now, 10 months later, they just started growing again. If I would have repotted them, they would have died. If I would have cut off more branches, they would have died. If I would have treated them with antibiotics, they would have died. But instead, I just waited it out. Next year, they are going to thrive. Junipers are virtually indestructible, as long as you let them be indestructible. If you are going to care for them as if they are sick puppies, they will die.
DamianTrimboli
Yamadori
Ok, I won't do nothing.. it's just that I see that dark foliage spreading that looks like a fungal issue, and I already lost junipers because not treating fungal issues on time, that's why I'm tempted to treat it someway.
My moisture sensor is the Xiaomi mi flora one (it also measures temperature, light, fertiliser based in conductivity) , two probes, bluetooth connected, with updated firmware and I have 15 of them distributed in my bonsais connected with a home assistant instance so I can track them from anywhere and activate automatic watering if necessary (that's not my usual way of watering, I have it just in case). Of course that with inorganic soil like lava rock they are not as accurate as normal soil.. but since I'm tracking them for enough time comparing all soils, I know that for example with lava rock when I water is 22%, the next day is 17%, then it keeps at 10% for a couple of days, and when it goes less than 8% its time to water.. but with organic soil less than 25% it is almost dry.
In my bonsai school they have teached us to use mineral oil in junipers foliage when collecting yamadori, repotting, wiring, doing heavy bending and when the tree is stressed, to reduce transpiration and facilitate recovering. I of course noticed the change in the foliage color to a radioactive light green, I thought it was healthier this way. The school is Salvatore Liporace one.
I am now learning that the change in the color is because the cuticulum dissolved.
Apart from the damage we all now I did to this tree, aren't you seeing any fungal issue?
My moisture sensor is the Xiaomi mi flora one (it also measures temperature, light, fertiliser based in conductivity) , two probes, bluetooth connected, with updated firmware and I have 15 of them distributed in my bonsais connected with a home assistant instance so I can track them from anywhere and activate automatic watering if necessary (that's not my usual way of watering, I have it just in case). Of course that with inorganic soil like lava rock they are not as accurate as normal soil.. but since I'm tracking them for enough time comparing all soils, I know that for example with lava rock when I water is 22%, the next day is 17%, then it keeps at 10% for a couple of days, and when it goes less than 8% its time to water.. but with organic soil less than 25% it is almost dry.
In my bonsai school they have teached us to use mineral oil in junipers foliage when collecting yamadori, repotting, wiring, doing heavy bending and when the tree is stressed, to reduce transpiration and facilitate recovering. I of course noticed the change in the foliage color to a radioactive light green, I thought it was healthier this way. The school is Salvatore Liporace one.
I am now learning that the change in the color is because the cuticulum dissolved.
Apart from the damage we all now I did to this tree, aren't you seeing any fungal issue?
