Is Bonsai Focus just Bonsai Europe with a new name?

[JasonG]

Fallen behind? Hell, we never caught up....

Remember this contest? The material argument holds no water either, we have far better material, in fact, look at the best European entry in that contest, it is a Rocky Mountain Juniper (Juniperus scopulorum) kind makes us look a little silly....and especially makes the material argument pointless.

There are Americans that have plenty to offer Bonsai Focus, they just don't.



Will

Sure it has to do with material in the sense that until more people start using our collected material and get away from the $25-100 trees we will always be last. The Europeans are kicking our butts because they work with mostly collected material and wan't isn't collected is imported from Japan. Until America gets on board with this, spends money to buy quality material we (as a whole) will never improve or advance. I have spoke to many of "Big names" in America, Japan, Europe about this and they all agree. Ofcourse, there are the exceptions to this, but in general the above is true. There are many killer collected trees in Europe,....phenominal trees.

Where I hit 65, I canceled my subscription to Playboy, I hadn't seen any new developments since silicone, air brushing, and maybe Photoshop.
Plastic Surgeons are somewhat like bonsai masters, they take good material and make it better. Certified, card carrying, paid up member in good standing in the "Dirty Old Men's Club" right Jason.

Harry

Jasons too young Harry. Now me .....well lets just say " god bless the American College of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery " and long live dirty old men !!!!

Now what were we talking about ???

You 2 guys make sure to save me a seat in the "Dirty Old Men Club", one day I will be there, heck probably even President! haha

 

[JasonG]

In regards to the whole Japanese "cookie cutter" and "green helmet" thing..... I too used to think like this and would look down at the Japanese trees like some do. But then a few friendships have formed and I got an inside look to bonsai in Japan via private pictures, show books, magazines, pamphletes, posters, etc... A trip is in the works for 2 years from now.

Anyways, after getting "Educated" on bonsai in Japan and seeing behind the scenes pictures of stuff that never rarely ever gets seen even if you visit in person I came to a point to where I had to appologize to my friends for thinking the way I did. I appologized because I felt like a retard running my mouth on a gerenalized opinion of the masses. But once exposed to such things I realized that "Cookie Cutter" and bonsai in Japan is just ignorant for me to say.

Most Japanese bonsai produced today and for the last several years is much more "naturalistic" than one would think. You have to get the show books, the Taiken Ten, Sakafu, Kokofu, Prime Minsiters award, etc, etc.....

There are trees in these books, magazines and publications that are out of this world, and the decidous trees, wow extremely naturalistic!!!

Europe is not far behind Japan though, in recent years bonsai in Europe has exploded with talent and material to make stars of the artist's working on them. Many, are trained in Japan too.

I think the term cookie cutter comes from the "S" shaped Chinese Elms we see all over the place, that is cookie cutter. I also think it comes from the millions of field grown JBP of Japan, China and Tiawan. Cookie Cutter comes from the commercial side of bonsai, not from the professional side of bonsai.

I honestly believe that most people that complain about "Cookie Cutter" and "Green Helmet" in America couldn't duplicate that if it was to save thier lives! Some people think Harrys shohin JPB are cookie cutter, 1)know anyone in America who can grow them like they do in Japan, or like Harrys trees? and 2) if given that raw stock, know anyone who can create as great of a tree out of it? I would be willing to bet 90% of people on all the forums wouldn't even know where to start!

None of the above is directed a single person, more of me just rambeling on out loud.... observations, things that annoy me and things I have learned.

I am a fan of killer bonsai, if it is Japanese, European, American, Alien....I don't care, a good tree is a good tree.

Jason

 

[greerhw]

Sure it has to do with material in the sense that until more people start using our collected material and get away from the $25-100 trees we will always be last. The Europeans are kicking our butts because they work with mostly collected material and wan't isn't collected is imported from Japan. Until America gets on board with this, spends money to buy quality material we (as a whole) will never improve or advance. I have spoke to many of "Big names" in America, Japan, Europe about this and they all agree. Ofcourse, there are the exceptions to this, but in general the above is true. There are many killer collected trees in Europe,....phenominal trees.






You 2 guys make sure to save me a seat in the "Dirty Old Men Club", one day I will be there, heck probably even President! haha

The dirty old mens club doesn't have an age limit, so welcome to the club and if you want to run for president, I'll vote for you.

Harry

 

[greerhw]

Styles and origin are just a venue for argument, trees in a pot are bonsai, at least that's my understanding. I happen to like conifers in the traditional Japanese style style. Why does there need to be arguments as to which is the better example, or which country has the better trees. Hobbiest are the most argumentive people I know next to politicians.Talking about making mountains out of molehills, geez.

Harry

 

[Ang3lfir3]

In regards to the whole Japanese "cookie cutter" and "green helmet" thing..... I too used to think like this and would look down at the Japanese trees like some do. But then a few friendships have formed and I got an inside look to bonsai in Japan via private pictures, show books, magazines, pamphletes, posters, etc... A trip is in the works for 2 years from now.

Anyways, after getting "Educated" on bonsai in Japan and seeing behind the scenes pictures of stuff that never rarely ever gets seen even if you visit in person I came to a point to where I had to appologize to my friends for thinking the way I did. I appologized because I felt like a retard running my mouth on a gerenalized opinion of the masses. But once exposed to such things I realized that "Cookie Cutter" and bonsai in Japan is just ignorant for me to say.

Most Japanese bonsai produced today and for the last several years is much more "naturalistic" than one would think. You have to get the show books, the Taiken Ten, Sakafu, Kokofu, Prime Minsiters award, etc, etc.....

There are trees in these books, magazines and publications that are out of this world, and the decidous trees, wow extremely naturalistic!!!

Europe is not far behind Japan though, in recent years bonsai in Europe has exploded with talent and material to make stars of the artist's working on them. Many, are trained in Japan too.

I think the term cookie cutter comes from the "S" shaped Chinese Elms we see all over the place, that is cookie cutter. I also think it comes from the millions of field grown JBP of Japan, China and Tiawan. Cookie Cutter comes from the commercial side of bonsai, not from the professional side of bonsai.

I honestly believe that most people that complain about "Cookie Cutter" and "Green Helmet" in America couldn't duplicate that if it was to save thier lives! Some people think Harrys shohin JPB are cookie cutter, 1)know anyone in America who can grow them like they do in Japan, or like Harrys trees? and 2) if given that raw stock, know anyone who can create as great of a tree out of it? I would be willing to bet 90% of people on all the forums wouldn't even know where to start!

None of the above is directed a single person, more of me just rambeling on out loud.... observations, things that annoy me and things I have learned.

I am a fan of killer bonsai, if it is Japanese, European, American, Alien....I don't care, a good tree is a good tree.

Jason

I don't know if I should be offended (i think i am not supposed to be) ..... or simply understand that your vision of Bonsai is different than what we attempt to create at Elandan (that being "American Bonsai").

Of course when we talk about cookie cutter Japanese trees we are talking about trees created by Americans who think they are creating "Japanese styled" trees. So maybe you weren't talking about that. I'm not sure. I do believe that there are a great many people who could indeed create the helmets and 1-2-3 trees out there... who do complain... and simply choose not too.

Either way... my point is that I see a lack of consideration for the American artists who truly have something uniquely American to contribute to bonsai. For crying out loud we are flying in Italians and Austrians in to style our trees (no offense Harry or Walter).... cultivating American artists in America... maybe we should think about that more... and think less about perfecting these "Japanese style" trees.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Why does there need to be arguments as to which is the better example, or which country has the better trees.
Harry

Because unfortunately Harry people often choose to measure one persons ability against another's based on some preconceived notion of a standard. And while bonsai should be "for the artist" an artists work can sometimes be missed out on when too few options exist in the measuring arena.

I can appreciate the trees you post and love Harry.... I would style them differently... but I can appreciate them.

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Of course Japanese bonsai is starting to get more naturalistic... they had to catch up with those who were doing it that way. Believe me... they didn't start that trend.

Sounds like you'll have your own apprenticeship soon enough. I think it would be a marvelous opportunity. If I ever had the chance I would study with Kathy Shaner in a minute. I know she has a lot to teach me... and I think she's a blast to boot.

But the comparison of who would do what with what stock is not a terribly good one... 90% of the people in Japan wouldn't know what to do with good stock either. That's why their trees get sent to the "masters" to be looked after... if they are any good.

Mind you... It's not the helmets that get my goat nearly so much as seeing a perfectly worked out conifir form that was applied to a deciduous tree. Looks rediculous any way I slice it.

There are lots of amazing Japanese bonsai... I just happen to know quite a few American bonsai I love more.

And just so there's no confusion... I do not relate 1-2-3 and "cookie cutter" in the same way that you might.

But ranting is good... it gets it off your chest. Feel better?

Your friend,

Victrinia

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

I don't know if I should be offended (i think i am not supposed to be) ..... or simply understand that your vision of Bonsai is different than what we attempt to create at Elandan (that being "American Bonsai").

Of course when we talk about cookie cutter Japanese trees we are talking about trees created by Americans who think they are creating "Japanese styled" trees. So maybe you weren't talking about that. I'm not sure. I do believe that there are a great many people who could indeed create the helmets and 1-2-3 trees out there... who do complain... and simply choose not too.

Either way... my point is that I see a lack of consideration for the American artists who truly have something uniquely American to contribute to bonsai. For crying out loud we are flying in Italians and Austrians in to style our trees (no offense Harry or Walter).... cultivating American artists in America... maybe we should think about that more... and think less about perfecting these "Japanese style" trees.

Dearest...

I think you missed the words... "most people". In my years with you, you have never been part of the "most" catagory, in any arena.



Yours,

Victrinia

 

[greerhw]

Because unfortunately Harry people often choose to measure one persons ability against another's based on some preconceived notion of a standard. And while bonsai should be "for the artist" an artists work can sometimes be missed out on when too few options exist in the measuring arena.

I can appreciate the trees you post and love Harry.... I would style them differently... but I can appreciate them.

Thanks Ang,
I appreciate the complement. But there is no need for me to be offended to the point of arguing, other than ego. My trees suit my taste, like my wife does for my taste in women. I would't change a thing about her or my trees.

Harry

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Thanks Ang,
I appreciate the complement. But there is no need for me to be offended to the point of arguing, other than ego. My trees suit my taste, like my wife does for my taste in women. I would't change a thing about her or my trees.
Harry

awwwwwwwwwwww.............. you realize saying stuff like that gets you points with women BIG DOG.

You are such a doll....

V

 

[Anonymous User]

Okay Harry, we'll just give everyone a trophy in the new liberal fashion so that we all feel good and now we can sit around the campfire and sing songs together.

Everyone's efforts are great, no bonsai is any better than any others, no need to learn, to strive, to pratice at all........as long as you're happy.



Pffftttt

 

[greerhw]

Okay Harry, we'll just give everyone a trophy in the new liberal fashion so that we all feel good and now we can sit around the campfire and sing songs together.

Everyone's efforts are great, no bonsai is any better than any others, no need to learn, to strive, to pratice at all........as long as you're happy.



Pffftttt

Will, you're not going to bait me, you continue to do it way and I'll do it mine.Besides you have KK to argue with. Peace

Harry

 

[Anonymous User]

I admit that I did take your words to the extreme, but the point is valid, it does matter.

Can't have it both ways, after all.






Peace,


Will

 

[JasonG]

I don't know if I should be offended (i think i am not supposed to be) ..... or simply understand that your vision of Bonsai is different than what we attempt to create at Elandan (that being "American Bonsai").

Of course when we talk about cookie cutter Japanese trees we are talking about trees created by Americans who think they are creating "Japanese styled" trees. So maybe you weren't talking about that. I'm not sure. I do believe that there are a great many people who could indeed create the helmets and 1-2-3 trees out there... who do complain... and simply choose not too.

Either way... my point is that I see a lack of consideration for the American artists who truly have something uniquely American to contribute to bonsai. For crying out loud we are flying in Italians and Austrians in to style our trees (no offense Harry or Walter).... cultivating American artists in America... maybe we should think about that more... and think less about perfecting these "Japanese style" trees.

Hey Ang,

Not trying to offend you at all, just stating the obvious. I was always under the impression that cookie cutter was in refrence to trees from Asia, not people in America styling like Japanese trees. My vision of creating trees is no different then that of what you guys are doing with Dan, or what Walter is doing or what the Japanese are doing. It is about finding the tree in the tree.

As for the American artist, name me one. Dan could fit in there since he doesn't have any formal training in Japan or Europe. All the big names of today are trained in Japan. So, there isn't really any true American Artist in the sense I think you are refering to. There will be in several years as a small handful of us who are lucky enough to work on excellent material all the time and study under a good teacher. But that will take many years to happen. We bring in Marco, Walter, etc... because they are the best of the best right now....

Of course Japanese bonsai is starting to get more naturalistic... they had to catch up with those who were doing it that way. Believe me... they didn't start that trend.

Sounds like you'll have your own apprenticeship soon enough. I think it would be a marvelous opportunity. If I ever had the chance I would study with Kathy Shaner in a minute. I know she has a lot to teach me... and I think she's a blast to boot.

But the comparison of who would do what with what stock is not a terribly good one... 90% of the people in Japan wouldn't know what to do with good stock either. That's why their trees get sent to the "masters" to be looked after... if they are any good.

Mind you... It's not the helmets that get my goat nearly so much as seeing a perfectly worked out conifir form that was applied to a deciduous tree. Looks rediculous any way I slice it.

There are lots of amazing Japanese bonsai... I just happen to know quite a few American bonsai I love more.

And just so there's no confusion... I do not relate 1-2-3 and "cookie cutter" in the same way that you might.

But ranting is good... it gets it off your chest. Feel better?

Your friend,

Victrinia

Hey Vic,

I am not going over there for an apprenticeship, heck no! I will have plenty of oppurtunity to work with the likes of Walter, Ryan Neil and Peter Warren right here in my yard. One of which will be here full time soon.
1-2-3 trees, I don't look at tree with that in mind and maybe that has to do with working mostly on collected material....you work with what you have not what the rules say. So in that regard I don't see an need to look for 1-2-3 like Dan preaches. I have sat with him and got the speal on that and I think with yamadori it is kinda a mute point. Would you agree?

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of killer American trees....yes lots of them. It is a shame to know that most of the trees collected in the 50's thrut the 80's ended up dead. There were some national monument type trees that had no chance of survival. It is also a shame to see some bigger collections of older collected trees going downhill too. I think in that regard America is in a rebuilding stage as far as bonsai goes. There are people like Randy Knight collecting trees that are bringing people from all over the world to see these trees and make purchases. Many Americans are quitely building huge worldclass collections.... it will just take time to get the trees in the public eye, but trust me our time is coming.... I just don't want you to think I am 100% traditional Japanese style here, because I am not. I too can't wait to see America step to the next level.

Yes, sometimes ranting can be good.....and I do feel better

When you and Ang coming down? I look forward to your visit.

Jason

 

[Anonymous User]

Nick Lenz.


See this and for other American artists, see this.



Will

 

[reddog]

Nick Lenz.


See this and for other American artists, see this.



Will

Nick has very nice trees but what's up with the barbie doll and tanks?

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Yes, sometimes ranting can be good.....and I do feel better

When you and Ang coming down? I look forward to your visit.

Jason

LOL ME TOO!!!!!!

We have been talking about coming down next weekend since Dan will be out of town.... but that aint for sure... we have to see whats goin on. But soon for sure!

 

[JasonG]

LOL ME TOO!!!!!!

We have been talking about coming down next weekend since Dan will be out of town.... but that aint for sure... we have to see whats goin on. But soon for sure!

This coming weekend is my daughters first BDay, so we are having a party on Saturday and family will be leaving around noonish Sunday.

Would another weekend be better? You can leave with Dan there, I am sure he won't ground you guys, lol!

Jason

 

[TheSteve]

You know I always thought that this could be the one thing that transcended race, location, whatever. This is living art and it's all about the trees. Picking a style that's right for the tree or a tree that's right for the style should be what it all boils down to. of course there will be outside influence. 99% of this entire country is outside something or other at one time or another. Why does it have to be about regional styles? Just leave it at the trees themselves.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

This coming weekend is my daughters first BDay, so we are having a party on Saturday and family will be leaving around noonish Sunday.

Would another weekend be better? You can leave with Dan there, I am sure he won't ground you guys, lol!

Jason

Absolutely.... and I hope she has a marvelous bday... you did remember the pony right?

LOL... I don know, he can be very posessive .... tho he does want to come down there and check the place out as well... so it might be better to wait ne ways.

Happy bday to the little budding bonsai artist!!!!!!