Introductory soil physics

[10-brink]

great thread! lots to stew on. I need to try these tests with napa DE and perlite

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

I do wonder if the shallow pots are for exhibition and then the tree goes back into it's home pot.
As you also typed in another topic.

Mark,

The fact that the tree has mastered the soil, shows that the mix works. Re-potting was Jan.2nd 2016.
Then the applied information, allows the situation to continue on in Health.

Sitting back to take a good read.
Please don't make this simple situation too complicated ------- it's not nuclear power.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[0soyoung]

I need to try these tests with napa DE and perlite

Please post your results!

 

[Austrian]

Here are the plots.

Hi! I'm new and just made an account so I could see the plots.

Great work! One big question that remains for me (one that so far you haven't touched on) is how long the different substrates can hold the water - because I guess that is not entirely dependent on WHC alone. Someone from Germany compared different substrates in that regard some years ago and it showed quite different drying behaviors depending on the substrate. He made a video (in German) but it has a diagram in it that might be helpful nonetheless: Bonsai-Substrate (German) .

Cheers, Alex

 

[markyscott]

Thanks Alex, and welcome. I appreciate the link. Hadn't seen that before.

Scott

 

[Austrian]

Thank you!
I'm thinking it might help if I translate the caption from the plot he shows in the video (from minute 17 on). (should have done that in my first post):

- Coco peat
- Bonsai soil mix he bought from a German shop
- Seramis (similar to turface)
- Sphagnum peat
- Akadama
- Kanuma
- Kiryu
- Pumice
- Lava (scoria)
- Expanded clay
- Gravel

(The substrates are ordered in regard to the initial WHC he measured)

Cheers, Alex

 

[hemmy]

There is also this substrate analysis report from Bonsai Jack, which I believe has been posted here somewhere previously.

http://www.bonsaijack.com/BonsaiJack_Bonsao_Soil_Aggregate_Report_2014.html

 

[markyscott]

There is also this substrate analysis report from Bonsai Jack, which I believe has been posted here somewhere previously.

http://www.bonsaijack.com/BonsaiJack_Bonsao_Soil_Aggregate_Report_2014.html

Thanks for the reminder. I've seen this before and corresponded with him about his results. He has some good information, but it's difficult to obtain porosity, AFP and WHC from his results. Those data, and quantifying how they change as a function different variables, are very important to our discussion here.

Scott

 

[hemmy]

@markyscott, what are your thoughts on the physical and chemical properties of zeolite?

I've seen it mentioned on this site and several European growers use it. It appears that the quality and composition might be fairly variable depending on the source of the material. I believe it has a CEC of ~100 and it appears that the mineral structure and negative charge allows it to bond to calcium, phosphate, magnesium, nitrates, etc.

Here is an interesting site, although the other tabs read like a Superthrive ad, in terms of beneficial claims.

http://midwestzeolite.com/PRODUCTION_SPECIFICATIONS.html

It seems like it might be acceptable as a minor percentage for its ability to bond to positive ions. But do you think it could be a negative if it retains too much Calcium?

 

[markyscott]

@markyscott, what are your thoughts on the physical and chemical properties of zeolite?

I've seen it mentioned on this site and several European growers use it. It appears that the quality and composition might be fairly variable depending on the source of the material. I believe it has a CEC of ~100 and it appears that the mineral structure and negative charge allows it to bond to calcium, phosphate, magnesium, nitrates, etc.

Here is an interesting site, although the other tabs read like a Superthrive ad, in terms of beneficial claims.

http://midwestzeolite.com/PRODUCTION_SPECIFICATIONS.html

It seems like it might be acceptable as a minor percentage for its ability to bond to positive ions. But do you think it could be a negative if it retains too much Calcium?

Hi Hemmy. I'm familiar with zeolites, but I've never used them in bonsai. They are a group of minerals that tend to form as a weathering product of volcanic tuff. The chemical composition of the tuff, the composition of the circulating fluids, the fluids T, pH and eH etc all combine to control on the composition of the zeolite mineral formed. In terms of their physical properties, it all comes down to the factors I mentioned before - 1) grain size, 2) grain shape, 3) sorting. That's largely a result of how the product is processed. If you can get some with a large enough fraction in the grain size range you're looking for at a reasonable price it will likely produce the AFP you're looking for.

In terms of it's chemical properties it has a high CEC and has some other interesting properties (like reverse hydration). Calcium is a cation - anything with a high CEC will exchange calcium. I'm not concerned about that at all.

However, there's a commonly held conception that having a high CEC is good. If you're goal is to fertilize less often, then it is. If you're goal is to control when fertilizer is and IS NOT available to the plant (an important technique in bonsai) then a low CEC gives you a lot more control. When you have a low CEC, the fertilizer is gone from the soil after a few waterings. How long is it bound if you have a CEC of 100? I have no idea, but likely a lot longer. So with high CEC soil components, you lose control.

Here's an example. I fertilize Japanese Black Pine throughout the spring until I decandle. When I decandle, I stop fertilizing until the needles on the summer shoots harden off. Then I commence fertilizing in the late summer and early fall. It's important to grow the summer shoots without access to fertilizer. It's the combination of timing the decandling and growth of the summer shoots without fertilizer that allows you to control needle length. With a low CEC medium, you can be sure it's gone from the soil quickly. With a high CEC soil it's unclear how long fertilizer will hang around after you stop so you have less control on the needle size and neck length of the summer shoots.

So I like a low CEC medium for bonsai.

Scott

 

[Anthony]

Mark,

well man in those few lines on J.B.pines, your a genius. Thanks.
Before we defoliate the Tamarind [ for example ] we fertilise well.

Until it has re-foliated , fertiliser is withheld.

When the leaves are pruned back and set in size, we start fertilising back up.

Oh brother, we idiots down here, couldn't figure that out -------------- dummies.
So Sifu 2 ------ thanks.

Gonna be like a Shaolin Temple here soon - Sifu, Sifu 2 ---------- who's next ??????????
Good Day
Anthony

* Now how much fertiliser ----------- 1/3 Lawn = 12 N ...... ?
Treat like a Tamarind, dragonfly.

 

[Adair M]

Lol, Anthony!!! I've posted the withhold fertilizer after decandling technique numerous times!

It's a Boon technique!

You do realize that Scott and I are both Boon students, don't you?

 

[petegreg]

@markyscott, what are your thoughts on the physical and chemical properties of zeolite?

I've seen it mentioned on this site and several European growers use it. It appears that the quality and composition might be fairly variable depending on the source of the material. I believe it has a CEC of ~100 and it appears that the mineral structure and negative charge allows it to bond to calcium, phosphate, magnesium, nitrates, etc.

Here is an interesting site, although the other tabs read like a Superthrive ad, in terms of beneficial claims.

http://midwestzeolite.com/PRODUCTION_SPECIFICATIONS.html

It seems like it might be acceptable as a minor percentage for its ability to bond to positive ions. But do you think it could be a negative if it retains too much Calcium?

Thanks for asking this Q. I use zeolite, 2,5-5 mm fraction, alone or in mixes. And can't really see the difference.

But reading Scott's response I'll be more careful using it with pines esp. JBPs.

 

[markyscott]

Thanks for asking this Q. I use zeolite, 2,5-5 mm fraction, alone or in mixes. And can't really see the difference.

But reading Scott's response I'll be more careful using it with pines esp. JBPs.

Hi Petergreg. My response was about technique, not about pines per se. And it is tied up with the stage of development of the tree as well. By way of another example - with developed broadleaf trees I withhold fertilizer in the spring and commence fertilizing again in summer after the spring growth has hardened off. But decandling, worrying about needle length, worrying about internode length - these are all concerns when your tree is in refinement. After the trunk is developed and the major branch structure is in place. For trees in development, witholding fertilizer is of much less concern.

Scott

 

[petegreg]

Thank you Scott, I got it.

One more note, the majority of my much more experienced bonsai friends here use a lot of zeolite, if not pure. They grow all tree species in zeolite including pines from our climate (no JBPs) and the trees of all stages of development. I' ll have to have a talk with them concerning fertilizing. But those pots with zeolite are hell heavy...

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

it's how Mark said it and my mind linking it.
That moment when conifer became tree and as a tree, it made sense.
Now let's see if we can use the revelation.

Pine ----- needle ------ leaf ----- Tamarind.
Good Day
Anthony

* I treat you guys as individuals and individual thinkers , not as student of Boon.

 

[YukiShiro]

* I treat you guys as individuals and individual thinkers , not as student of Boon.

you are awesome Anthony!

 

[Anthony]

Yuki,

in the world of Fine Art, The Ateliers / The Academies are the source of drawing and painting skills [ the craft of painting ]
After you graduate with acknowledged papers, you are expected to go somewhere and clear the mind for 3 to 5 years.
So you don't end up as teacher's clone.

As a student you cannot teach. You have mastered nothing.

Apply the above to Bonsai being taught as a craft.

The ART part comes later from the mind of a Master, and History pins that medal on your chest.

I treat try to treat Sifu with respect.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Lobaeux]

I just spent the last two hours reading this whole thread sitting at Starbucks in the Las Vegas airport before my flight. My head is bursting with knowledge!
Thanks guys!

 

[markyscott]

I just spent the last two hours reading this whole thread sitting at Starbucks in the Las Vegas airport before my flight. My head is bursting with knowledge!
Thanks guys!

You are welcome. I'm glad you feel as though you got something out of it.

Scott