Hydroton instead of Akadama

[HB Smith]

"But that's not really the point. No one disputes Akadama can make trees perform better. BUT, why put $15 worth of soil in a $10 tree?

Because you can more quickly create a $200 dollar tree.

In regards to 'cutting' Akadama, you have to. I swear by the stuff but would NEVER use it straight. It would be like trying to grow in straight pine bark. I use it at a 33% concentration in my conifers and a 50% concentration in all my other trees (except azaleas). Years ago my wife took a workshop making root over rock Jap black pine. She took a three year old Jap black pine that was grown in equal parts lava, pumice, and Akadama. She had the hardest time attaching the tree to the rock because all that was in the pot was fibrous roots. We see the same in most all our trees with this mix verses anything else we used.

The priest steps down from the pulpit. The crowd murmurs, "So say we all."

 

[Smoke]

Those that use akadama RELIGIOUSLY will swear by it. They know what it does to plants. Those that have never used it, do not know what they are missing. Those that have tried it, but feel it's not worth the price have made a decision. I'm not here to try and change their mind. All I know is it is decent in price for me, readily available, and makes trees do wonderful things....so I use it. I like how it performs as there is nothing else on earth that performs as well.

The crushed hardpan here, Calidama, is a good alternative, but is not volcanic in origin so lacks the very things that make volcanic soil so good. Central valley hardpan is sedimentary in origin and is probably the end culmination of a million years of silt and salt runoff from the Sierra Mountain range all cemented together. Probably has some concentration of selenium in it that will eventually kill all my trees

 

[rockm]

"Because you can more quickly create a $200 dollar tree."

A quicker, more effective avenue to create a $200 tree from a $10 tree is to simply put it in the ground. Using $100 worth Akadama over ten years in a container is hardly cost-effective.

"Those that use akadama RELIGIOUSLY will swear by it. They know what it does to plants. Those that have never used it, do not know what they are missing. Those that have tried it, but feel it's not worth the price have made a decision. I'm not here to try and change their mind. All I know is it is decent in price for me, readily available, and makes trees do wonderful things....so I use it. I like how it performs as there is nothing else on earth that performs as well."

It is sort of a religion, with the associated weird assumptions about "non-believers." I've used it mixed and uncut. Worked pretty well. Cost an arm and a leg. Not readily available. My trees have been developing well for the past 20 years mostly without it. Not ready to join the cult

 

[HB Smith]

"Not ready to join the cult

Who said you were invited?

 

[Smoke]

"Because you can more quickly create a $200 dollar tree."

A quicker, more effective avenue to create a $200 tree from a $10 tree is to simply put it in the ground. Using $100 worth Akadama over ten years in a container is hardly cost-effective.

"Those that use akadama RELIGIOUSLY will swear by it. They know what it does to plants. Those that have never used it, do not know what they are missing. Those that have tried it, but feel it's not worth the price have made a decision. I'm not here to try and change their mind. All I know is it is decent in price for me, readily available, and makes trees do wonderful things....so I use it. I like how it performs as there is nothing else on earth that performs as well."

It is sort of a religion, with the associated weird assumptions about "non-believers." I've used it mixed and uncut. Worked pretty well. Cost an arm and a leg. Not readily available. My trees have been developing well for the past 20 years mostly without it. Not ready to join the cult

I havn't seen any, so I wouldn't know

 

[greerhw]

Can I get an AMEN !!!!!

Harry

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

I hear you rockm. I know it isn't a necessity. But I'm not able to find turface or lava rocks locally. The closest pumice mix (Dry Stall) is about 30 miles away. Im not saying that's far, but at that point it would almost cost me as much in gas to go get it as it would to get it shipped here. So basically, I have to order whatever I'm going to use (although I will continue to scour the area).

Specialkayme, I am in the Oak Ridge area.

Turface = you can go to the John Deere Landscape place that is on Gallimore Dairy Road. The sometimes stock it and sometimes they have to bring it in from another store. I bought some and still have a bag or two left. It is no different than Oil Dry that you can buy at WalMart, except for color. Turface is a tan or light brown, Oil Dry is gray.

Large particle sand = Go to Hughes Supply on Burnt Poplar Road. This place isn't in the phone book, I think they just changed their name. I can give you directions there. Ask for #3 well sand. Nice large particles 1/8" or a tiny bit bigger and makes a nice grit content.

Grani-Grit = screened small granite particles ca. Used as a feed supplement for chickens. 1/8" diameter. Feed stores, the feed store in Summerfield has it, the old feed store in Kernersville has it, I think, Southern States out east of Summerfield on 150 has it. You want "layer" size grit. And Southern States also has Dry Stall pumice.

Permatill = expanded shale. Wonderful stuff. Use it instead of lava rock. The Oak Ridge Nursery on Hwy. 68 a mile or so north of the airport exit has it. I have seen it at a Nursery in Winston-Salem. I asked New Garden Nursery over on Lawndale if they had it and I think they said they did. Stuff is made down in Saulisbury or some other place down that way.

I haven't found small particle lava rock around here except as a orchid planting medium and it was way expensive for a pound or two in a plastic bag. Still looking.

 

[Specialkayme]

Wow Mac! Thanks 1,000%!

I called the John Deere, and they told me they didn't carry it. I didn't know I needed to harass them

I'll be picking up the sand, granigrit, and drystall next weekend (or maybe next week). I already have the permatill though . . . from New Garden, lol.

 

[Specialkayme]

Just to let you know, Mac, I went and got some Permatill and Dry Stall from Southern States today. I also got some Oil Dri from Walmart (going with that for now, instead of terface, High Point was further than I felt like driving today, lol). I couldn't find your sand guy, but just went with a 10% leveling sand mixture instead.

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

I am going over that way this morning and will get you the correct name of the place and the address.

Attached are two photos. One with tree trunk is #3 well sand and Turface mixed. The other is a scoop of #3 well sand by it's self. The chop stick will give you a size reference.

Good stuff, not expensive.
Regards,
Mac

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Specialkayme,

The place to get the #3 well sand is:

H.D Supply - Waterworks
6344 Burnt Poplar Road

It is about .8 mile east of where Gallimore Dairy Road crosses Burnt Poplar. Burnt Poplar runs parallel to I-40.

There is a small sign on the north side of Burnt Poplar with the company name on it and 6344. You turn in that drive and there is a big brown building on your left with 6342 on it. Go on down the drive past the brown building and the drive hooks around to the right. That's the place.

Regards,
Mac

 

[nebari44]

I am on my way!

 

[Fimbrethil]

Haydite and composted pine bark mulch......people make this way more complicated than it has to be. I've planted in straight oil dry from napa auto parts (6 bucks for a 80 lb bag)...diatomatous earth. and had excellent results

 

[Smoke]

Haydite and composted pine bark mulch......people make this way more complicated than it has to be. I've planted in straight oil dry from napa auto parts (6 bucks for a 80 lb bag)...diatomatous earth. and had excellent results

If your bark is larger than a pea...it's not composted. If you are useing bark larger than a pea , your bark is useing up all your nitrogen in whatever fertilizer you use while it does compost......



And you are right...soil can be complicated and your oil dry and bark may "seem" to work good for you untill you really start trying different soils and spend some bucks you may never know how well "complicated" can be. You are right though....your willing to wear a suit from Kmart and I'll continue to have mine made by Armani. I can afford the best so I use it.....

 

[fore]

If your bark is larger than a pea...it's not composted. If you are useing bark larger than a pea , your bark is useing up all your nitrogen in whatever fertilizer you use while it does compost

Smoke, I am just getting to mixing my own soil and was thinking of adding a small component of organic via fine pine bark mulch, in an inorganic mix. And I was wondering about this just this week....whether the mulch should be used straight out of the bag or if it needed to be composted. Thanks for bringing this up, I would not have guessed that a fine mulch would take up Nitrogen while composting...seems counterintuitive.

Any recommendations about how to go about composting a small amt. of pine mulch? Maybe something like using one of those lg. lobster pans...toss by hand tool? Is it too late in the season to start something like this? (Obv, I have no experience in composting )

 

[greerhw]

Why do newbies always try to reinvent the wheel, Bonsai can be an expensive hobby if you have money to spend. Why in the world would you want to stick a tree in a crock of crap like kitty litter or floor sweep. Buy an inexpensive tree if if that's all you can afford, buy a cheap pot, but at least spend a little more money on the best proven soil to give your tree the best possible chance of surviving. Ask the Japanese what they use, I can guarantee you it isn't kitty litter.

Harry

 

[Smoke]

Smoke, I am just getting to mixing my own soil and was thinking of adding a small component of organic via fine pine bark mulch, in an inorganic mix. And I was wondering about this just this week....whether the mulch should be used straight out of the bag or if it needed to be composted. Thanks for bringing this up, I would not have guessed that a fine mulch would take up Nitrogen while composting...seems counterintuitive.

Any recommendations about how to go about composting a small amt. of pine mulch? Maybe something like using one of those lg. lobster pans...toss by hand tool? Is it too late in the season to start something like this? (Obv, I have no experience in composting )

Adding wood to a soil mix is counterproductive unless its composted. Bark was an alternative to making a good friable soil mix back in the day. Orchid bark, which is usually fir bark was a good bark to keep a soil mix open and pourous. The bark did begin to break down and then microbes would begin to work on it and then the mix would turn hot and start a chain reaction that used up all the nitrogen actually starving the plant of nutrients. Bark is cheap and makes a good filler and trees will grow quite well in it all by itself.

If a person whishes to add compost to a mix (which is good if your retired and can water properly) then it would probably be better to add a composted material to start with. Kellogs makes some really great composts to add to soil. Many are from redwood sawdust and the tannins seem to acidify the soil which is nice. Mushroom compost is good too. Just remember that these composts can hold a lot of water and make the soil mushy unless some good sand or grit is present.

Usuing compost and akadama is counterproductive since the akadama is both organic and has good water retention. The two together is sort of like making soup. A good mushroom compost will probably last half the year as far as nutrients go. So, unless your bulking up a plant, fertilizer is not so much of an issue.

I like totally inorganic soil. That way I can control everything from water and nutrients to particle size.

Ahh...particle size...now there is a new thread to explore. Bigger is definatly better..and size does matter!

 

[discusmike]

Ive switched from using turface,haydite and pine bark,to using akadama,turface,haydite,large sand, and pine bark,ive had a few growers complain about it breaking down,but ive not had that issue yet,and its been over two growing seasons,maybe they were only using akadama,but i like the results,helps alot with proper water retention and air,my maples especially like it,seeing how the roots grow thru the akadama is cool,ill be paying Jim Doyle a visit before spring to buy some more,if i had hundreds of trees it would not be cost effective,but my wife wont allow me to have that many!!If she could only see how many trees you guys have,maybe she wouldnt think im crazy!LOL Akadama rules

 

[greerhw]

I would rather have one quality tree than a hundred sticks. Quality trumps quantity anytime and quality needs the best soil and care possible.

Harry

 

[mrcasey]

Nitrogen and Fresh Bark

According to noted bonsai nurseryman Brent Walston, the concern about nitrogen lockup from fresh bark is unwarranted (assuming regular fertilization). Here’s an excerpt from one of Brent’s posts on the bonsaisite forums from 2006:


Some people argue that the temporary effect of nitrogen lockup dictates that all organic materials must be composted to be used in container mixes. Wrong. First, the effect is only temporary. Once the amendments compost in the mix, the nitrogen is freely available again. But the major flaw in the argument is that the effect, although present, is minimal, and easily overcome if you fertilize to any degree at all. Furthermore, fresh bark is superior because it degrades (read composts) slowly in slow mixes making nitrogen lockup negligible for all intents and purposes. On the other hand, composted material continues to breakdown and will still exhibit small nitrogen lockup effects.

Casey