How to deal with trunk rot at base

[HENDO]

Hey All,

I recently acquired a good sized prostrata juniper and repotted it. During repotting it was clear that there was some mushy rotting wood at the base of the trunk. I scraped as much mushy stuff off until I got to hard wood.

My question now is what is the next step? Do I let it try to heal over somehow? Or, do I need to line sulphur all of this all the way below the soil level?

It was quite extensive on one side (the back) and on the front I actually noticed some mush today slightly above soil level. On the back there is already a large shari above the rotted section.

Any guidance would be much appreciated because this is a very nice old tree and I would like to extend the trunk condition as long as possible.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Eckhoffw]

Nice tree. Interested on how this resolves.

 

[Shibui]

Dead wood cannot heal. It is dead. The live parts around it can grow over the dead wood but with juniper that can take an age.
I can see the dead wood above has been treated with lime sulphur which has preserved it. The rotted section was not treated as it was below soil. It is also ideal conditions for rot below soil level so that is what you get.
Any dead wood that is not treated properly will rot so make sure any dead wood you want to retain is treated several times each year.
It is difficult to treat dead wood below ground level. You may be able to do it at repotting but that will only be every 2-5 years so not really often enough. You may be able to scrape a little soil away when treating the above ground section and reach a little under soil level. If the dead section goes further down treatment will no be possible but that doesn't matter too much because if we can't see it it does not exist. Rotted wood does not usually hurt the live sections of the trees.

There is some good news. Dead wood tends to rot unevenly so when you scrape out the rotted sections the remaining dead wood usually looks far more natural than the original flat shari. Those who carve out dead sections strive to artificially create this sort of feature and here you have nature creating it for you.
Rather than worrying that the lower section is a bit hollow I would now try to carve a little of the higher dead wood to continue the hollowed area up the shari so that it looks more natural. This 'problem' should actually add more interest and feature to your tree.

 

[f1pt4]

Do you want to keep the deadwood and accentuate it? or do you want the tree to roll over the deadwood area?

If you want to keep the deadwood, it will be an ongoing battle. Most important part is to keep it away from moisture, and it seems that your mix is fairly well draining so it should help. You need to remove as much of the mushy deadwood and then treat it. I've heard people using superglue, various wood hardeners, lime sulpher and the like. This will be an ongoing battle, that will have to be repeated over the years.

I also heard via one of the Mirai vids that if you want the tree to roll over the deadwood, you need to carve out all the punky wood until you reach bone, and then fill it in with some form of epoxy putty to prevent any further rot, and to provide a frame for the wood/live vein to roll over, over. I've never tried it, so can't attest to its success but it seemed to make sense when it was being explained.

It's a nice looking tree! Best of luck!

 

[HENDO]

Dead wood cannot heal. It is dead. The live parts around it can grow over the dead wood but with juniper that can take an age.
I can see the dead wood above has been treated with lime sulphur which has preserved it. The rotted section was not treated as it was below soil. It is also ideal conditions for rot below soil level so that is what you get.
Any dead wood that is not treated properly will rot so make sure any dead wood you want to retain is treated several times each year.
It is difficult to treat dead wood below ground level. You may be able to do it at repotting but that will only be every 2-5 years so not really often enough. You may be able to scrape a little soil away when treating the above ground section and reach a little under soil level. If the dead section goes further down treatment will no be possible but that doesn't matter too much because if we can't see it it does not exist. Rotted wood does not usually hurt the live sections of the trees.

There is some good news. Dead wood tends to rot unevenly so when you scrape out the rotted sections the remaining dead wood usually looks far more natural than the original flat shari. Those who carve out dead sections strive to artificially create this sort of feature and here you have nature creating it for you.
Rather than worrying that the lower section is a bit hollow I would now try to carve a little of the higher dead wood to continue the hollowed area up the shari so that it looks more natural. This 'problem' should actually add more interest and feature to your tree.

Thank you both. I've gone ahead and scooped as much out as possible and am ready for some lime sulphur - the problem now is figuring out where the dead stuff ends and the live stuff starts!

 

[Tieball]

I treat deadwood, or formerly rotting wood, above and below ground with a particular “superglue”. I attached a photo. It is specifically very liquid to soak in deeper and solidify wood fibers. I read about this....and then tried this. It did the job perfectly. Available easily through Amazon or eBay. The highly liquid glue thoroughly soaks into the wood fibers and creates a more solid mass....that lasts regardless of watering. I reapply the superglue any time I lift the tree. I brush away really lose, mostly detached wood fibers, but also leave some areas natural.....the superglue will take care of those areas. This has work well for me.

I have not yet used the Tree Gum. I believe it would work well. Not used...because I’ve had good success with the superglue, especially at the ground level. I believe the Tree Gum will work best above ground...up on the trunk or branches....when a preservation is needed. I like that up higher it will leave a more natural coloration. I don’t use Lime Sulfur.

I also keep the substrate that is especially close to the lower trunk, whether a deadwood or live section, draining freely and quickly. I have found, in my experience, that keeping a concentration of organic close to the trunk when there is a rotting or deadwood area only increases the rotting. I have pure substrate closest to the trunk. Any added organics (small ba chips and charcoal chips) I use are placed away from the trunk where small roots can utilize that benefit.

 

[Shibui]

Thank you both. I've gone ahead and scooped as much out as possible and am ready for some lime sulphur - the problem now is figuring out where the dead stuff ends and the live stuff starts!

Most of the wood in a tree is effectively dead. Only the layers just under the bark are active. It is not difficult to see where the live is because it is a different color to the underlying wood there should also be a faint very thin greenish line between the living bark and wood - cambium - that will definitely show living tissue.
You can carve out any inner wood without affecting the living parts of the tree.

 

[keri-wms]

You could also leave a dip in the soil level at the trunk to keep it a bit drier, and stick a lump of moss there when you show it or have visitors?

 

[HENDO]

I treat deadwood, or formerly rotting wood, above and below ground with a particular “superglue”. I attached a photo. It is specifically very liquid to soak in deeper and solidify wood fibers. I read about this....and then tried this. It did the job perfectly. Available easily through Amazon or eBay. The highly liquid glue thoroughly soaks into the wood fibers and creates a more solid mass....that lasts regardless of watering. I reapply the superglue any time I lift the tree. I brush away really lose, mostly detached wood fibers, but also leave some areas natural.....the superglue will take care of those areas. This has work well for me.

I have not yet used the Tree Gum. I believe it would work well. Not used...because I’ve had good success with the superglue, especially at the ground level. I believe the Tree Gum will work best above ground...up on the trunk or branches....when a preservation is needed. I like that up higher it will leave a more natural coloration. I don’t use Lime Sulfur.

I also keep the substrate that is especially close to the lower trunk, whether a deadwood or live section, draining freely and quickly. I have found, in my experience, that keeping a concentration of organic close to the trunk when there is a rotting or deadwood area only increases the rotting. I have pure substrate closest to the trunk. Any added organics (small ba chips and charcoal chips) I use are placed away from the trunk where small roots can utilize that benefit.

View attachment 287600View attachment 287601

Hey Tieball! Once again you are a wealth of information!

I will be ordering some of this glue - I actually overheard somebody on the bonsai society here talking about using epoxy or glue to preserve so I should have thought of this in advance. Any issues with doing this after applying Lime Sulphur? It will be raining for a few days here so I'll wait for it to dry out before applying.

There is plenty of deadwood up above which deserves further preservation and protection from watering (like in this picture) so I'll try the Tree Gum as well for this.

There was some nasty soil close to the trunk that I picked out so I'll be sure to replace it with only coarse well draining material around the area. This may take a few rounds of work.

Thanks much!

 

[HENDO]

Most of the wood in a tree is effectively dead. Only the layers just under the bark are active. It is not difficult to see where the live is because it is a different color to the underlying wood there should also be a faint very thin greenish line between the living bark and wood - cambium - that will definitely show living tissue.
You can carve out any inner wood without affecting the living parts of the tree.

Ok now this I didn't know - very interesting. Now I don't feel as concerned with some of the deeper carving/shari started on this trunk.

I believe I found a good example of the cambium here, a section where the old bark scraped off quite a bit. Wonder if this should be pasted to protect it?

The lime sulphur on the back side came out looking OK, it was just difficult figuring out where to stop on the right-hand side of this section so I stopped where it was least mushy as shown in the last picture.

I have a feeling when I get to the front it will be a similar scenario.

Thanks!

 

[HENDO]

You could also leave a dip in the soil level at the trunk to keep it a bit drier, and stick a lump of moss there when you show it or have visitors?

Good call - done!

 

[Tieball]

Hey Tieball! Once again you are a wealth of information!

I will be ordering some of this glue - I actually overheard somebody on the bonsai society here talking about using epoxy or glue to preserve so I should have thought of this in advance. Any issues with doing this after applying Lime Sulphur? It will be raining for a few days here so I'll wait for it to dry out before applying.

There is plenty of deadwood up above which deserves further preservation and protection from watering (like in this picture) so I'll try the Tree Gum as well for this.

There was some nasty soil close to the trunk that I picked out so I'll be sure to replace it with only coarse well draining material around the area. This may take a few rounds of work.

Thanks much!

I don’t use Lime Sulfur at all, however, I can’t imagine it would be a problem. I won’t use epoxy because it is far to permanent and if there is any desire to remove it or parts of it the removal would be totally destructive to the protected wood. Really a problem in my view.

I think, again I don’t use Lime Sulfur though, that Lime Sulfur applied will weather nicely over time. The superglue could possibly prevent weathering or at least create weathering differences because of wood weaknesses or softness in areas. I would not apply them both. However, what I would do is find a similar tree/bush/branch and apply them both. I’d apply superglue first and then Lime Sulfur second on one section.....and then on another section reverse the process using Lime Sulfur first and superglue second. And, leave that in the same environment as your planned bonsai tree. I'm a person that enjoys good experimentation like this. It’s a fun process for me. I even paint light lines so I know the separation area....and photograph it with notes (because I sometimes forget things).

That substrate change at the base, no organic and just substrate near the trunk, made a good difference on my trees. The area will still decay over time but I have greatly reduced the acceleration of that natural process. After awhile, it does look really cool. Very natural aging for a tree.

After the superglue application....if needed...I use a Dremel wire brush on slow speed to cut back any excess dried glue or gloss that could appear on harder wood surfaces.

 

[Shibui]

The red area looks dead to me. You need to scratch gently to see whether there's live bark or dead wood there.
The remaining bark around the area - black line - also looks like it is dead but harder to tell in a photo. Just need to keep picking and scratching until you come to live bark. Under layers of the live bark will be white. Dead areas will be brown right down to the wood.

There appears to be a roll of live looking bark where I have drawn the lime green line. Again very hard to pick in a photo. There's also a thicker area where the darker green line is that could also possibly be the edge of the dead area. Just need to keep exploring until you find the edge of the dead then work up and don along the living edge. You won't hurt the tree if you scrape the live edge a bit. A healthy tree will just heal up small cuts and scratches.

The live edge will be quite a distinct line usually following the grain of the trunk.

Dead parts will just continue to rot away unless they are treated.

 

[sorce]

m ready for some lime sulphur - the problem now is figuring out where the dead stuff ends and the live stuff starts!

Ragging on you a bit here .....

Time to watch another Bjorn Video!

Cleaning the live vein and establishing the line should happen first, then you are....almost ready for lime sulphur!

Also, you may NOT want to let it dry out before application.

Looking good.....but wholly slow down before you get ahead of yourself in more important ventures!

Sorce

 

[HENDO]

I don’t use Lime Sulfur at all, however, I can’t imagine it would be a problem. I won’t use epoxy because it is far to permanent and if there is any desire to remove it or parts of it the removal would be totally destructive to the protected wood. Really a problem in my view.

I think, again I don’t use Lime Sulfur though, that Lime Sulfur applied will weather nicely over time. The superglue could possibly prevent weathering or at least create weathering differences because of wood weaknesses or softness in areas. I would not apply them both. However, what I would do is find a similar tree/bush/branch and apply them both. I’d apply superglue first and then Lime Sulfur second on one section.....and then on another section reverse the process using Lime Sulfur first and superglue second. And, leave that in the same environment as your planned bonsai tree. I'm a person that enjoys good experimentation like this. It’s a fun process for me. I even paint light lines so I know the separation area....and photograph it with notes (because I sometimes forget things).

That substrate change at the base, no organic and just substrate near the trunk, made a good difference on my trees. The area will still decay over time but I have greatly reduced the acceleration of that natural process. After awhile, it does look really cool. Very natural aging for a tree.

After the superglue application....if needed...I use a Dremel wire brush on slow speed to cut back any excess dried glue or gloss that could appear on harder wood surfaces.

My order of glue and some PC Petrifier has arrived and I have the perfect "test subject" in mind, a double trunk nursery prostrata juniper with lots of potential deadwood features.

For this larger tree I've gone ahead and treated the front rotted section with lime sulphur to match the rest of the deadwood. I dug a tonne a mucky soil out which was probably the main culprit, and did some very light carving to remove all the mush - there was a lot of mush. The old soil is now replaced with some coarse APL.

I really don't like the huge white wall of wood that's left, but at least the rotting has been dealt with for now which was the objective. If the test subject with sulphur/glue works out then I'll go ahead and glue the big tree too.

In the future if I ever get a chance to start from scratch I'll go with the PC/glue combination because the natural look is very nice!

 

[HENDO]

View attachment 287940


The red area looks dead to me. You need to scratch gently to see whether there's live bark or dead wood there.
The remaining bark around the area - black line - also looks like it is dead but harder to tell in a photo. Just need to keep picking and scratching until you come to live bark. Under layers of the live bark will be white. Dead areas will be brown right down to the wood.

There appears to be a roll of live looking bark where I have drawn the lime green line. Again very hard to pick in a photo. There's also a thicker area where the darker green line is that could also possibly be the edge of the dead area. Just need to keep exploring until you find the edge of the dead then work up and don along the living edge. You won't hurt the tree if you scrape the live edge a bit. A healthy tree will just heal up small cuts and scratches.

The live edge will be quite a distinct line usually following the grain of the trunk.

Dead parts will just continue to rot away unless they are treated.

Hey @Shibui & thanks for drawing this one out it is very helpful.

Here is a shot of the same area with the front rotted section visible too. Definitely the ugliest side, you can see how narrow the trunk is here. I haven't scratched much yet on the potential living edge yet, just dealt with what was for sure rotten. From what you can see here does it still look possible?

It almost seems like 90% of the energy on this tree is coming from the aerial roots, and the main trunk is mostly a goner and mainly supporting weight at this point

 

[HENDO]

Ragging on you a bit here .....

Time to watch another Bjorn Video!

Cleaning the live vein and establishing the line should happen first, then you are....almost ready for lime sulphur!

Also, you may NOT want to let it dry out before application.

Looking good.....but wholly slow down before you get ahead of yourself in more important ventures!

Sorce

Hey @sorce, rag away please! I appreciate the input espexially on this tree. Just keeping the trunk from turning to muck was my #1 priority so I've now accomplished that (I think), but now would like to improve the look and blend-in this huge wall of white deadwood at the base somehow.

I took your advice and applied LS to semi-wet material after lightly carving out the mush and it actually worked out great! This morning the area already has a satisfying hard knock to it when tapped, instead of my fingernail pushing in.

I haven't had a chance to watch any of these Mr. Bjorn's videos you speak of... but will certainly try to.

Here's the tree from the front. I think since most of the live veins are coming from the aerial roots it might be sort of easy to locate them? If so, would you just follow this trunk deadwood up to the next jin, vice-versa? I'm not a huge fan of the first big/straight jin poking out but could try to follow up to it?

Thanks!

 

[sorce]

This really is a bitching trunk.

I wouldn't worry too much about the live and dead except for fall cleaning to keep borers away. It looks good now.

The high roots equalling live veins is sort of a blessing and a curse. A blessing because they can elevate the DW from rot. A curse because, they are elevating the DW from the soil. Eventually, if not cared for, it may go empty and look odd.

I am thinking if you can isolate the stump from under, and perhaps use something like an aluminum window screen to, make sort of ...well...a dick head on the underside, to keep wet soil away. An air pocket. You can moss over the top to hide it. Water elsewhere.

But while pondering penile safety devices...

There are a couple lovely arching branches that mimic the trunk curves well. These wonderful branches bring attention to the dead straight ones, unwanted attention that can become wanted with a little bending.

The live vein will work itself out, that'll get easier if left alone.
That branch ain't getting no easier to bend.

Prioritize!

Beginning......

Cheers!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Maybe a future removal of this bit altogether is better?


Can't really tell what is what behind it, but it seems the straight part may be short enough then to not catch the eye.

Just the fact that there is no shadow to break up the Straight line is making it worse.

Perhaps there is a better fix than a bend, it looks thick.

Sorce

 

[chicago1980]

Hey @sorce, rag away please! I appreciate the input espexially on this tree. Just keeping the trunk from turning to muck was my #1 priority so I've now accomplished that (I think), but now would like to improve the look and blend-in this huge wall of white deadwood at the base somehow.

I took your advice and applied LS to semi-wet material after lightly carving out the mush and it actually worked out great! This morning the area already has a satisfying hard knock to it when tapped, instead of my fingernail pushing in.

I haven't had a chance to watch any of these Mr. Bjorn's videos you speak of... but will certainly try to.

Here's the tree from the front. I think since most of the live veins are coming from the aerial roots it might be sort of easy to locate them? If so, would you just follow this trunk deadwood up to the next jin, vice-versa? I'm not a huge fan of the first big/straight jin poking out but could try to follow up to it?

Thanks!

View attachment 295588

View attachment 295589

View attachment 295590

Looks like the dead area extends a lot from the picture. You can see the separation of the rolling live vein.

I can't tell exactly but I think you could make some solid design choices with this trees Deadwood.