How much foliage can you safely remove from junipers for an initial styling?

[electraus]

Hello, I’m wondering how much foliage can be removed from rough stock junipers on an initial styling? I understand the percentage changes between species and even sub-species, so I’m most interested in Kishu and Itoigawa. Maybe procumbens as well for practice.

My understanding is that itoigawa will revert if you cut more than ~40%, Kishus you can do ~50%-60%, and I’m unsure about procumbens. I guess the reason I’m asking is because I see YouTube videos of people doing initial stylings on rough stock and they seem to cut off so much more than 50% of the foliage, so I’m really confused.

 

[TrevorLarsen]

I think a lot of demos actually kill the trees. They just want to show it all at once when it’s far safer to do it over multiple years. The more you remove the longer it will take for the tree to recover and get back to the strength it had before you started.

 

[leatherback]

I am a "heavy pruner". I easily take off >50% on ittoigawa.
I feel it is important to ensure the tree is strong before the work (e.g, runners), and you keep loads of healthy growing tips on the tree, more than how much you take off.

Naturally, if you do get some spikey foliage, it is a matter of a few months to a year to get normal scale foliage again, so no real worry.

 

[leatherback]

I think a lot of demos actually kill the trees. They just want to show it all at once

Mwa.. Junipers can take a lot more than some people think. IF the material initially was healthy.
I have yet to loose substantial branches after a styling of juniper

 

[electraus]

I think a lot of demos actually kill the trees. They just want to show it all at once when it’s far safer to do it over multiple years. The more you remove the longer it will take for the tree to recover and get back to the strength it had before you started.

That’s what I’ve been wondering lately too

 

[electraus]

I am a "heavy pruner". I easily take off >50% on ittoigawa.
I feel it is important to ensure the tree is strong before the work (e.g, runners), and you keep loads of healthy growing tips on the tree, more than how much you take off.

Naturally, if you do get some spikey foliage, it is a matter of a few months to a year to get normal scale foliage again, so no real worry.

That makes a lot of sense actually. Thanks!

 

[Scriv]

Hello, I’m wondering how much foliage can be removed from rough stock junipers on an initial styling? I understand the percentage changes between species and even sub-species, so I’m most interested in Kishu and Itoigawa. Maybe procumbens as well for practice.

My understanding is that itoigawa will revert if you cut more than ~40%, Kishus you can do ~50%-60%, and I’m unsure about procumbens. I guess the reason I’m asking is because I see YouTube videos of people doing initial stylings on rough stock and they seem to cut off so much more than 50% of the foliage, so I’m really confused.

60% plus if the tree is healthy and you dial in the aftercare -- morning sun/afternoon shade, proper balance of water and oxygen. No point in leaving foliage on the tree if it isn't contributing to design and is stealing resources from the branches you do want to develop.

 

[Michael P]

I think a lot of demos actually kill the trees.

Yes, it's called Bonsai Demonstration Syndrome (BDS).

 

[bdmatt]

Assuming you don't touch the roots in the same year and the tree is extremely healthy, you can chop off a lot more than you expect.

I noticed for large itoigawas you can get away with chopping off up to 60 percent of the foliage just fine. Closer to 80 percent, the tree is going to slow down for a while and itll take some time to bounce back from such an operation.

Relatively young itoigawas and kishus (trunks less than an inch), they can handle a bit more work. I've attempted murder (80%+ pruned off and a repot) on kishus, and they survived but I wouldn't recommend it. I don't do this kind of drastic work anymore but when I was newer to bonsai, I did a lot of limit testing on junipers.

 

[Scorpius]

30% and you won't kill the tree even if aftercare is poor. Why the rush folks. Bonsai is a lifelong hobby where trees measure time in decades not seconds like us humans.

 

[Ruddigger]

I remove more than 50% on a regular basis. You can do closer to 80% if you have the right aftercare. The main advice I have is to shade the tree for a couple weeks afterwards, as you’ve cut back to interior foliage that was previously being shaded by all that foliage you just cut off. It will burn in the sun easily.

 

[Shibui]

I also wonder where this BDS comes from. So far I've only heard 'I think' and 'I heard' but very few actual first hand experiences. We could probably find more junipers that died without being pruned than ones that died after.
I certainly have no problem removing 50% foliage, sometimes more, in one session and can't think of a tree that died as a result. The vast majority of junipers go right back on the bench into full sun after any work, including pruning so I doubt that 'aftercare' is the key (sometimes I wonder if that's the real cause of some failures?)
Scale foliage will often revert to juvenile needle shoots but subsequent growth gradually changes back to mature scale growth so no real biggie as it will take at least a couple of years after hard pruning for the branches to develop and bulk up again.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

People are talking around the main issue without directly addressing it: removing foliage from a strong juniper that has strong undisturbed roots is very different than removing foliage from a tree that has just been removed from the wild, or has undergone a difficult repot from a nursery container where it has been root-bound for five years.

 

[Dav4]

The most important part of this equation is picking your material. A vigorous, healthy juniper can have BOTH its roots and canopy reduced significantly at the same time. I've done this several times on smaller but well trunked shimpaku that I'd grown out in the yard for a decade... these were collected a few years before the severe pruning and step down into a smaller pot- easily removed > half of both the roots and foliage in a single styling/re-pot- read that as it was rough pruned and wired one weekend or two earlier before the re-pot. Proper technique securing it to the pot is essential, as is soil... these went into a turface/lava/pumice mix iirc . Right back out into full GA sun, probably done in late March.

 

[Michael P]

Classic scenario for Bonsai Demonstration Syndrome:

A visiting expert comes to a club meeting. In the course of two hours, the expert severely prunes a nursery juniper, creates jin and/or shari and wires the tree. Expert then does drastic root reduction and ties the tree into a small bonsai pot. At the end of the demonstration the tree is raffled, a beginner wins it. A few weeks or months later it dies.

It happens.

 

[TrevorLarsen]

I also wonder where this BDS comes from. So far I've only heard 'I think' and 'I heard' but very few actual first hand experiences. We could probably find more junipers that died without being pruned than ones that died after.
I certainly have no problem removing 50% foliage, sometimes more, in one session and can't think of a tree that died as a result. The vast majority of junipers go right back on the bench into full sun after any work, including pruning so I doubt that 'aftercare' is the key (sometimes I wonder if that's the real cause of some failures?)
Scale foliage will often revert to juvenile needle shoots but subsequent growth gradually changes back to mature scale growth so no real biggie as it will take at least a couple of years after hard pruning for the branches to develop and bulk up again.

I have heard many people talk about demonstrations killing trees. The one that cones to mind first is Peter Chan. I think if Peter finds something too risky I likely is since he is not shy of being aggressive.

 

[Dav4]

For what it’s worth, most of the demonstrations I have been to over the last decade have been decidedly different in the sense that the material, regardless of species, was approached with the idea that it would take multiple stylings to reach the design goal, and the work carried out over the one to two hour demonstration was done in anticipation of rest, recovery and future growth to allow the next styling to be done. The demonstrator typically describes the end goal and discusses why he is doing something now, what he expects to happen over the next growing season, and his future plans for the material.

 

[bwaynef]

A lot of the caution given for not removing juniper foliage is to prevent them turning juvenile. If that amount of foliage is called for removing, dealing with juvenile foliage isn't an issue. The tree is likely in development and needs time ...to develop. By the time you're refining the tree, you won't be taking off enough to send it juvenile.

 

[leatherback]

A visiting expert comes to a club meeting. In the course of two hours, the expert severely prunes a nursery juniper, creates jin and/or shari and wires the tree. Expert then does drastic root reduction and ties the tree into a small bonsai pot. At the end of the demonstration the tree is raffled, a beginner wins it. A few weeks or months later it dies.

really? What is the point of such a demo.
Glad I have never been to one of those.

 

[Michael P]

Such demonstrations are very dramatic with lots of entertainment value.