How does one promote backbudding in spruce? and other inquiries!

[Cypress]

So I have one dwarf Alberta spruce which its branches foliage extend all the way back to the trunk, oh so pretty! BUT what this post is REALLY about is that I have 2 dwarf White spruce, which mostly have their foliage on the tips of the branches and the rest of the branch to the trunk is bare. WAH.

So I am asking you all how does one go about back budding a spruce, or chasing back the foliage down the branch or something?

I think I read somewhere that if you pinch off the apical meristem(s) (the bud at the peak/apex of the trunk) it will cause back budding down the trunk, but not sure if it would affect bare spots on branches. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure this was spruce I'm thinking of.

But if that is the case, would pinching all the buds from the tips of the branches cause backbudding along the branches?? HMMMMM!!!

*****Last but not least, when's the best time of year to do this??

Please help!

 

[Cypress]

Teaser, I'm going to be using these trees for a an evergreen forest planting, probably delve into that next spring... Will include: one tall Alberta spruce, 2 shorter white spruces, one little mugo pine, and one little Hinoki Cypress!

 

[october]

Spruce can be picky. They need specific techniques at specific times. Can you post pics of these trees. Close ups, then views of the whole trees.

Rob

 

[Cypress]

Spruce can be picky. They need specific techniques at specific times. Can you post pics of these trees. Close ups, then views of the whole trees.

Rob

yea I will when I get a free minute. Do you know any spruce pruning techniques the promote backbudding off the top of your head at the moment? Oh and I should probably also say that I killed one dwarf white spruce earlier this summer, probably because I pruned it in the middle of the summer, but I think it had to do with removing too many buds on the ends of branches (in the heat of summer) because the other one I pruned at the same time is recovering well with new growth.

 

[Cypress]

I was thinking that since they're going into an evergreen forest planting in the future... the more sparse branches on the 2 white spruce will make them look rugged and old, might actually add a nice quality to the overall design.

And YES spruce can be picky, I've killed two so far...

 

[october]

First, wiring and general styling of Spruce should be done in Fall. You can probably get away with late Summer to early Winter. Second, repotting is done in Spring. Third, new buds are reduced usually around early Summer or when the tree dictates. Basically cut strong and medium buds in half after they open and extend, but right before they harden off. This will cause the tree to produce buds behind that area or further inward on the branch. You can see that there are 3 different time frames here. Each one designates when a different task can be done.

When you wire, be very careful not to damage new buds and too many needles in areas that you want buds. Also, be careful with multiple bending. It is best to bend your branch and leave it alone. If you have to adjust it, that is ok. However, do not keep bending it in different directions.

Rob

 

[fourteener]

I've been plucking spruce and getting them to bud back for years. Every spring I let the new growth extend about an inch and then pluck off half of that growth point around the entire tree. I fertilize and watch it back bud. Generally no new buds will form on the new growth you didn't pluck off. In the fall I go back and remove all of those tips with no buds.

The inner parts of the branches need light. Starting from the top you have to remove a certain amount of foliage so the branch below is getting some light. It has taken about three years to push back branches from 12 inches down to 3-4 inches.

I could try and get some pics. Spruce tree branches seem to have layers on top of each other's. I try to find natural ways to removes the longest portions and get back budding on what remains

 

[Cypress]

WOW, thanks to both of you, that really helped me out!

I'll get some pics up of some of my trouble branches tomorrow.

 

[Lazylightningny]

What would happen if you removed all current buds from the tree? I have an Alberta spruce that I've been nursing back to health that has not had this year's growth pruned. My goal is to chase back the growth that is currently at the ends of the limbs. Is it more advisable to wait for next year's growth before proceeding, or will pruning buds now stimulate more growth next spring? It's not as healthy as it could be yet, so I've been proceeding slowly so far. Some apical buds are quite robust, with 3 buds at the tips, some have only one, and some have none.

 

[fourteener]

What would happen if you removed all current buds from the tree? I have an Alberta spruce that I've been nursing back to health that has not had this year's growth pruned. My goal is to chase back the growth that is currently at the ends of the limbs. Is it more advisable to wait for next year's growth before proceeding, or will pruning buds now stimulate more growth next spring? It's not as healthy as it could be yet, so I've been proceeding slowly so far. Some apical buds are quite robust, with 3 buds at the tips, some have only one, and some have none.

If your tree is weak I would leave it alone for this fall. If you attempt to make it form new buds it might just die trying. Next spring when new growth emerges, I would let the buds do their thing for about a month and then pluck them. If it seems like weak growth, I would let them be and let the plant get stronger.

The problem with Alberta spruce is those limbs grow straight up. I would trim away everything dead that keeps light from getting in and either spread the branches out to let light in or, wire them down if you've already pushed them back a ways. As buds appear don't be too quick to cut off branch extension. So I don't remember where I heard this, bit somewhere I heard to try and keep 10-15 buds per branch in order to keep that branch viable. It's something I've kept an eye on and I've never had a branch die off, though I 've heard others have that problem.

Take note of the branches with no buds, see what happens next spring.

 

[Cypress]

If your tree is weak I would leave it alone for this fall. If you attempt to make it form new buds it might just die trying. Next spring when new growth emerges, I would let the buds do their thing for about a month and then pluck them. If it seems like weak growth, I would let them be and let the plant get stronger.

The problem with Alberta spruce is those limbs grow straight up. I would trim away everything dead that keeps light from getting in and either spread the branches out to let light in or, wire them down if you've already pushed them back a ways. As buds appear don't be too quick to cut off branch extension. So I don't remember where I heard this, bit somewhere I heard to try and keep 10-15 buds per branch in order to keep that branch viable. It's something I've kept an eye on and I've never had a branch die off, though I 've heard others have that problem.

Take note of the branches with no buds, see what happens next spring.

OK this is all making sense to me but just ONE more question, when I do go to prune the buds next spring do I either: completely remove the bud OR pinch most of it off (like 3/4)??? I mean from my general botany knowledge you would have to remove the meristem... Which implies removing the entirety of the bud???

 

[fourteener]

OK this is all making sense to me but just ONE more question, when I do go to prune the buds next spring do I either: completely remove the bud OR pinch most of it off (like 3/4)??? I mean from my general botany knowledge you would have to remove the meristem... Which implies removing the entirety of the bud???

I'm no botanist, I just know what has been working for me. I know some people pluck terminal buds and timing is everything. Do it too early and all that will happen is a different bud will become the terminal bud. For those who bud pluck, I've heard them call it the fuzzy egg stage. At that point they pluck off the whole terminal bud.

I have chosen to pluck new extensions. Letting the bud grow out to an inch or more and then plucking all of those growth points. If you do it early no new buds will form on the current years new growth. This year I waited for them to get a couple of inches long and plucked them. In that case I did get some new buds on the new years growth.

I do get an overabundance of buds and some would think to remove some. I leave them on and wait for growth. I have no botanical proof, but I imagine the tree divides all it's energy amongst all the growth points. more growth points means less energy at any one point. when I pluck the growth is when I go in and remove the places with too many growth points.

All of this creates good back budding. Spruce trees have a tendency to throw new layers of growth on top of old growth on a branch. The way I chase it back is to remove the older extension and have a nice layer of new growth become the new end. After a few years of repeating that you can get back pretty close to the trunk.

 

[0soyoung]

The way it works generally is that back budding is caused by doing something that collapses the auxin flow going down the stem toward the roots. Little to no backbudding will occur if you do something that only moderately or gradually lowers the auxin flow.

Branch tips and hardened young foliage are the sources of the auxin and buds. Expanding buds export relatively little auxin. More is exported once it has extended and the most is exported once the foliage (needles/leaves) has also hardened. From this peak, the foliage exports progressively less auxin as it ages.

With spruce, in particular, the strongest impetus for back budding will occur if you prune back after the season's new foliage has hardened (i.e., the needles are full-colored, stiff and pointy). The conventional practice, however, is to 'pinch' the season't new growth when it has largely extended but is still soft (hold the stem end of the sprout and pull the end off). This produces an adequate but nevertheless a lesser degree of backbudding stimulus. However it is conventionally done at this time because it easy to do and doesn't cause unsightly brown needle tips like cutting will. If you wait until the needles have harderned, the new shoot will also be somewhat hardened and must be cut. Though tedious, needle damage can be avoided by careful use of pruning scissors.

Another consideration may be that you see many buds along the stem. If you trim the apical buds, say, no new budding will occur because the auxin flow reduction is small and/or gradual. However, you are pretty much assured that the buds now closest to the (new) tip will sprout in the spring whereas, the may have remained dormant if you hadn't. So, if you are chasing back foliage, you can cut back to the buds that are located where you want the branch end to be, but no new interior buds will be stimulated by this action.

 

[fourteener]

The way it works generally is that back budding is caused by doing something that collapses the auxin flow going down the stem toward the roots. Little to no backbudding will occur if you do something that only moderately or gradually lowers the auxin flow.

Branch tips and hardened young foliage are the sources of the auxin and buds. Expanding buds export relatively little auxin. More is exported once it has extended and the most is exported once the foliage (needles/leaves) has also hardened. From this peak, the foliage exports progressively less auxin as it ages.

With spruce, in particular, the strongest impetus for back budding will occur if you prune back after the season's new foliage has hardened (i.e., the needles are full-colored, stiff and pointy). The conventional practice, however, is to 'pinch' the season't new growth when it has largely extended but is still soft (hold the stem end of the sprout and pull the end off). This produces an adequate but nevertheless a lesser degree of backbudding stimulus. However it is conventionally done at this time because it easy to do and doesn't cause unsightly brown needle tips like cutting will. If you wait until the needles have harderned, the new shoot will also be somewhat hardened and must be cut. Though tedious, needle damage can be avoided by careful use of pruning scissors.

Another consideration may be that you see many buds along the stem. If you trim the apical buds, no new budding will occur, because the auxin flow reduction is small and/or gradual. However, you are pretty much assured that the buds now closest to the (new) tip will sprout in the spring whereas, the may remain dormant if you didn't. So, if you are chasing back foliage, you can cut back to the buds that are located where you want the branch end to be. The end bud(s) will likely sprout, but no new interior buds will be stimulated by this action.

I know some horticulture classes would do me good. Part of me waiting too long this year forced me to get the scissors out rather than an easy pluck.

 

[ABCarve]

Little Gems??

I've been plucking spruce and getting them to bud back for years. Every spring I let the new growth extend about an inch and then pluck off half of that growth point around the entire tree. I fertilize and watch it back bud. Generally no new buds will form on the new growth you didn't pluck off. In the fall I go back and remove all of those tips with no buds.

The inner parts of the branches need light. Starting from the top you have to remove a certain amount of foliage do the branch below is getting some light. It has taken about three years to push back branches from 12 inches down to 3-4 inches.

I could try and get some pics. Spruce tree branches seem to have layers on top of each other's. I try to find natural ways to removes the longest portions and get back budding on what remains

Does this technique include "little gems"? It seems they don't extend an inch. Is there a way to tell when it's time to pluck? And how do you pluck those little extentions?

 

[fourteener]

Does this technique include "little gems"? It seems they don't extend an inch. Is there a way to tell when it's time to pluck? And how do you pluck those little extentions?

I really can't say. I do have a dwarf variety of Bird's Nest Spruce. It too puts out tiny extensions. In that case I have just been using a clip and grow method. You might select a branch and do a little experiment to see how it responds. As long as it's healthy, I would think you could remove the whole of the new growth and it would bud back. Try it on a branch you might cut off anyway. This is where it's good to have some things around that are just experiments.

 

[discusmike]

I have ezo spruce, buds don't open all at once,but gradually over a two or three week period with the strongest opening first, so as they open I begin to cut,letting them extend about a inch first, as mentioned, the first ones to open will be the first ones cut, until all new buds open, leaveing weak branches alone.You can remove all buds before they extend much on strong healthy finished trees to keep there shape, but only every three years, I don't have any finished glenhii, so i have not done this.

 

[barrosinc]

nice tips!! thanks october, fourteneer, oso and mike