Help with decision about removal of a branch

[Matthew Rudling]

I have three juniper procumbens nana - really small. Two of them are each half a pencil in diameter. The third is about a pencil and a bit. My question is, do you wire the trees at this stage, or is it better to let them grow wild for a few years and perhaps wire along the way once they get taller and larger diameter so you have more to work with? My ultimate height for the trees would be no more than 30cms given that they are slow to thicken up at the base.

My plan is to style them into cascades or semi-cascades, or perhaps informal uprights.

I have tried wiring one of the smaller ones and it felt as if the tree was too small to do so at this stage because the wired proportions felt like they would only fit a very small tree given that the bends etc were too small.

The largest of the three is posted below (front and back at for want of a better term of view):

 

[Matthew Rudling]

No it will not! Your tree is short of foliage already based on the pictures. Juniper will need extension of new growth in the ten to twelve centimetre range before you can expect as strong bud back reaction. And this is only if there is also sufficient foliage ) health and vigour retained to help the tree through the transition. For example foliage left behind the cut back to keep good energy flowing through the branches.
Your best bet at this point is to strengthen for one or two years before working the tree.
When your tree shows this type of extension along with healthy foliage behind to cut back to then it will be good to go! The extensions should appear as the one on the right in this picture.View attachment 420929

I actually have a Juniper Procumbens Nana which I received as a gift and I am currently nursing back to health and getting to 'mound' with this elongation.

Which resources did you find the most helpful for developing junipers and conifers in general? Most online are very helpful with deciduous trees.

 

[penumbra]

Addmitedly I didn't have the patience to read all of this through, but far enough to know you plan to jin the right branch. At a glance I think that is a mistake and the left branch should go, jin or no.

 

[Matthew Rudling]

Addmitedly I didn't have the patience to read all of this through, but far enough to know you plan to jin the right branch. At a glance I think that is a mistake and the left branch should go, jin or no.

That was the conclusion, but to also allow the tree regain its vigour first. Why do you think that should be the case though?

 

[River's Edge]

I actually have a Juniper Procumbens Nana which I received as a gift and I am currently nursing back to health and getting to 'mound' with this elongation.

Which resources did you find the most helpful for developing junipers and conifers in general? Most online are very helpful with deciduous trees.

I do find some of the online resources helpful, however I have not used them for building a foundation of best practises. That I received through training in person with professionals.
if you wish to use online resources I would point you to the Bonsai Empire site ( Bjorn Bjorholm), the written archives of professionals such as Jonas Dupuich ( Bonsai Tonight) and Michael Hagedoorn ( Craetegus.com)
There are also some very accomplished people on this site with a good deal of professional training, however you need to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff. Also, to my knowledge they are not involved in online training resources.

 

[penumbra]

That was the conclusion, but to also allow the tree regain its vigour first. Why do you think that should be the case though?

At first glance it just looks awkward and heavy on the left. The right branch gives you better taper and if you follow that imaginary line from the base out the left and the right branches, it becomes clear to me.
Also, that left branch is really boring and straight and that is not easy to overcome.

 

[Shibui]

I have three juniper procumbens nana - really small. Two of them are each half a pencil in diameter. The third is about a pencil and a bit. My question is, do you wire the trees at this stage, or is it better to let them grow wild for a few years and perhaps wire along the way once they get taller and larger diameter so you have more to work with? My ultimate height for the trees would be no more than 30cms given that they are slow to thicken up at the base.

Junipers tend to get real stiff earlier than many other species so I make any bends when they are still thin and flexible then concentrate on thickening up the trunks.
If you plan on only making gentle bends you can probably leave it longer but to me juniper is a wild, mountain tree and deserves a range of random bends and twists to give that wild, mountain look.

I have tried wiring one of the smaller ones and it felt as if the tree was too small to do so at this stage because the wired proportions felt like they would only fit a very small tree given that the bends etc were too small.

Not sure I understand this. Bends can be made any size or shape at any thickness. Bends are totally up to the operator not dictated by the material.

One thing beginners don't seem to realize is that much of any small plant destined for bonsai will be sacrificial growth so will be cut off at some stage or another. When I look at a small plant I only see the lower trunk and initial branching. Most of the rest won't be there in a few years however all that depend on what you want to achieve. If you will be happy with small mallsai as your bonsai collection that can be achieved using whatever is already there - just wire to commercial S shape and start trimming to promote ramification.

 

[Matthew Rudling]

Junipers tend to get real stiff earlier than many other species so I make any bends when they are still thin and flexible then concentrate on thickening up the trunks.
If you plan on only making gentle bends you can probably leave it longer but to me juniper is a wild, mountain tree and deserves a range of random bends and twists to give that wild, mountain look.

Not sure I understand this. Bends can be made any size or shape at any thickness. Bends are totally up to the operator not dictated by the material.

One thing beginners don't seem to realize is that much of any small plant destined for bonsai will be sacrificial growth so will be cut off at some stage or another. When I look at a small plant I only see the lower trunk and initial branching. Most of the rest won't be there in a few years however all that depend on what you want to achieve. If you will be happy with small mallsai as your bonsai collection that can be achieved using whatever is already there - just wire to commercial S shape and start trimming to promote ramification.

Basically if I wanted a bigger tree than what I have to work with at the moment I would wire up to the point I could - say first 1/3rd of height and focus on development to that point. Then the growth which comes after that wiring could be sacrificial to chop at a later stage or even wire.

 

[Shibui]

Wire and bend what you currently have while it is still flexible enough to do so. If that's not enough trunk let it grow and rewire next year and so on until you have the trunk you want.

I deliberately grow long, skinny shimpaku cuttings 20-30 cm long but only a few mm thick. These are wired as soon as they have roots and I'm potting up (easier to wire and bend while they are out of the pot) the entire length of the trunk is bent and twisted into a range of bends which usually compresses the 30 cm trunk down to around 5-10 cm high. Then pot up and allow to grow. Wires removed as soon as the wires appear tight on the bark around 1-2 months.
When these have new shoots 20-30 cm long they are wired again and the new section bent to compliment the earlier part. Any branches that grow longer are also wired and bent to complement the trunk, even those I know will become jin because straight jins on twisted trunks looks bizarre.
Sometimes takes 3-4 years and 3-4 wirings to get a trunk up to 30 cm high.
Sacrifice branches are encouraged to selectively thicken parts of the trunk.
It often takes 10 years or more to grow a decent small shimpaku bonsai this way but the time is well worth it for the results.

Procumbens appears to grow a bit faster than Chinensis so you may be able to reduce the timeline somewhat.

 

[Matthew Rudling]

Wire and bend what you currently have while it is still flexible enough to do so. If that's not enough trunk let it grow and rewire next year and so on until you have the trunk you want.

I deliberately grow long, skinny shimpaku cuttings 20-30 cm long but only a few mm thick. These are wired as soon as they have roots and I'm potting up (easier to wire and bend while they are out of the pot) the entire length of the trunk is bent and twisted into a range of bends which usually compresses the 30 cm trunk down to around 5-10 cm high. Then pot up and allow to grow. Wires removed as soon as the wires appear tight on the bark around 1-2 months.
When these have new shoots 20-30 cm long they are wired again and the new section bent to compliment the earlier part. Any branches that grow longer are also wired and bent to complement the trunk, even those I know will become jin because straight jins on twisted trunks looks bizarre.
Sometimes takes 3-4 years and 3-4 wirings to get a trunk up to 30 cm high.
Sacrifice branches are encouraged to selectively thicken parts of the trunk.
It often takes 10 years or more to grow a decent small shimpaku bonsai this way but the time is well worth it for the results.

Procumbens appears to grow a bit faster than Chinensis so you may be able to reduce the timeline somewhat.

Thank you for this reply as it is a really clear road map for me to use. Really, really helpful. I will wire later this year and post the results next year some time.

Do you ever incorporate trunk chops with junipers?

 

[Shibui]

Yes, of course trunk chops are used with junipers but remember to always leave plenty of healthy growth to take over. Junipers do not do well when all the foliage is removed.
Trunk chop with juniper can be right back to a side branch to leave a flat cut or leave a short or longer stub to create jin.
I find that sacrifice branches are a better way of thickening juniper trunks as you can decide which parts of the trunk thicken and which do not so a bit more control than simple trunk chop.
You should be able to find some threads with pics using search here. Unfortunately I'm on very limited internet this week so Can't find any for you.

 

[tangledtanuki]

Just throwing in my two cents from what I learnt now over the winter when doing juniper bends here in Israel is the best time. My teacher recommend that i put on the wire on the younger material and twist the trunk to give the future tree the option of having those live veins wrap around the trunk too. If you leave it as is the live veins will run up with the bends but by bending and twisting the live veins will eventually also do the same as junipers from what I understand work a bit differently in terms of the way each branch is connected to the roots via a live vein.