Good Hornbeam material?

[Scrogdor]

This picture isn’t the best, took it in winter, but I’ve had my mind on this tree. Since I was just able to move a couple of my current trees and have some free cash for a nice pre-bonsai. It is fairly pricy though, 400$. It’s an American Hornbeam.

It’s homegrown in California so should be well acclimated here.

Would love some weigh in from some hornbeam experts here.

 

[BobbyLane]

Looks like a substantial piece of material. Good find potentially. I think you've seen some of my hornbeam threads and what I start with and cut back to. Options to cut back n regrow here. I also would of dug around on base and checked other bases in the nursery.

 

[Scrogdor]

Looks like a substantial piece of material. Good find potentially. I think you've seen some of my hornbeam threads and what I start with and cut back to. Options to cut back n regrow here. I also would have dug around on base and checked other bases in the nursery.

Everything else is way too big lol. This one is pretty chunky but it’s manageable size wise and has already been chopped at least once. Might go check it out tomorrow or Friday

 

[Gabler]

Is $400 worth the time you'd otherwise spend digging one up, fixing the roots, and chopping it to build taper, or, for that matter, growing one from seed? If so, buy it. If not, pass.

 

[Scrogdor]

Is $400 worth the time you'd otherwise spend digging one up, fixing the roots, and chopping it to build taper, or, for that matter, growing one from seed? If so, buy it. If not, pass.

If only I could find wild hornbeam in California.

 

[rockm]

If only I could find wild hornbeam in California.

Why? There are literally dozens of species there that we here in hornbeam country can't get (and those species (i.e. Cali. oaks, etc.) are arguably better material for bonsai)...just sayin.

 

[BobbyLane]

If only I could find wild hornbeam in California.

That wouldnt be the only benefit. If its well established in the current pot it will have grown new roots, maybe some nebari and some high surface roots. It also has low branches that are workable now. Its a stump so you have options to either go for taper or go for a more naturalistic approach like the Walter pall stumps.
The great thing about established nursery or field grown stock is its usually workable right out of the box. For me thats a big bonus

 

[Gabler]

Why? There are literally dozens of species there that we here in hornbeam country can't get (and those species (i.e. Cali. oaks, etc.) are arguably better material for bonsai)...just sayin.

To be fair, most of us grow Japanese and Chinese species of trees outside of Asia. Heck, some of us grow trees that can't even live in our climate, like Ficus spp.

That said, I see your point. Is the $400 Carpinus worth more than the time spent collecting and training a California native?

 

[BobbyLane]

What if the OP loves working with Hornbeams though, he has a few so im guessing he just likes the species.

 

[BobbyLane]

From what ive seen and heard, you dont get the dense ramification of its European counterpart, so something to keep in mind, it might just mean you go for a more rugged, sparse look like some of these below. But it still looks a suitable bonsai candidate for me, here are some American Hornbeam pulled from Facebook, with their captions.

From Harry harringtons page:

Before and after images of a Carpinus caroliniana/ American Hornbeam bonsai I finished working on yesterday.
A heavy old tree, I believe originating from field grown material by John Trott, it’s height is 18”/45cm.
The owner says it’s been hanging around in his garden largely unworked for years, I think it’s a bit of a star!


American Hornbeam - this forest was created using small seedlings in a workshop with Bill Valavanis 20 years ago. From the collection of Tom Bjorholm currently maintained at Eisei-en.



Second growing season from collected stump. American Hornbeam.



American hornbeam from air layering. 10 years in training. repot into Sara Reyner pot. From Boon's page



American Hornbeam in central Florida. $1500. Cash only at pickup.

 

[rockm]

What if the OP loves working with Hornbeams though, he has a few so im guessing he just likes the species.

Because growing collected species outside of their climate zones can be a lot trickier than using native species. Being from the U.K. you might not get that, since you have only one climate zone. We have 9 to13 depending on where you ask. Using native material from one zone here is NOT like using landscape material from nurseries there.

I've experienced this first hand, using material collected in the Southwestern desert and shipped east. Zone envy is not uncommon. Wanting what you can't have has always been a thing in bonsai. Those in the tropics want Japanese maples. Those in temperate zones want bougainvillea. It can be done, but mostly it can be aggravating. Using collected trees native to one's area, particularly when there are so many candidates, is often overlooked. We in the U.S., fortunately and unfortunately, have many climate zones and what works well in one, is a hassle in another.

I'm a fan of Southern U.S. trees, primarily Texas (which is similar to my climate, but not the same) trees. I live in Va. That means collected trees from their transferred here to Va. means less winter hardiness from the trees I get. Keeping those trees healthy can be a challenge. Sometimes even keeping them alive is the challenge (and I speak from bitter experience there too). Sure grow what you like, but using species native to one's climate area can be every bit as rewarding without a lot of the self-induced headaches.

What I am saying is instead of getting fixated on an alien species, turning to hardier, possibly better, collected native material in your own native zone shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[rockm]

From what ive seen and heard, you dont get the dense ramification of its European counterpart, but it still looks a suitable bonsai candidate, here are some American Hornbeam pulled from Facebook, with their captions.

From Harry harringtons page:

Before and after images of a Carpinus caroliniana/ American Hornbeam bonsai I finished working on yesterday.
A heavy old tree, I believe originating from field grown material by John Trott, it’s height is 18”/45cm.
The owner says it’s been hanging around in his garden largely unworked for years, I think it’s a bit of a star!
View attachment 506054

American Hornbeam - this forest was created using small seedlings in a workshop with Bill Valavanis 20 years ago. From the collection of Tom Bjorholm currently maintained at Eisei-en.

View attachment 506055View attachment 506056

Second growing season from collected stump. American Hornbeam.

View attachment 506057

American hornbeam from air layering. 10 years in training. repot into Sara Reyner pot. From Boon's page

View attachment 506058

American Hornbeam in central Florida. $1500. Cash only at pickup.

View attachment 506059

Did you bother to look WHERE these are being grown? This kind of comparison is silly. The OP lives in Oakland, Ca. not Florida, or New York or anywhere in the species' native range. There have been posts here centering on difficulties with American hornbeam on the Pacific coast.

 

[Gabler]

What if the OP loves working with Hornbeams though, he has a few so im guessing he just likes the species.

I also seem to recall a thread by OP about moving to California from the east coast. There's value in familiarity, not in the sense that cultivation will be easier, since it's an unfamiliar climate, but for the sentimental value of plants that remind people of home.

 

[Scrogdor]

Because growing collected species outside of their climate zones can be a lot trickier than using native species. Being from the U.K. you might not get that, since you have only one climate zone. We have 9 to13 depending on where you ask. Using native material from one zone here is NOT like using landscape material from nurseries there.

I've experienced this first hand, using material collected in the Southwestern desert and shipped east. Zone envy is not uncommon. Wanting what you can't have has always been a thing in bonsai. Those in the tropics want Japanese maples. Those in temperate zones want bougainvillea. It can be done, but mostly it can be aggravating. Using collected trees native to one's area, particularly when there are so many candidates, is often overlooked. We in the U.S., fortunately and unfortunately, have many climate zones and what works well in one, is a hassle in another.

I'm a fan of Southern U.S. trees, primarily Texas (which is similar to my climate, but not the same) trees. I live in Va. That means collected trees from their transferred here to Va. means less winter hardiness from the trees I get. Keeping those trees healthy can be a challenge. Sometimes even keeping them alive is the challenge (and I speak from bitter experience there too). Sure grow what you like, but using species native to one's climate area can be every bit as rewarding without a lot of the self-induced headaches.

What I am saying is instead of getting fixated on an alien species, turning to hardier, possibly better, collected native material in your own native zone shouldn't be overlooked.

It's extremely hard to get a permit to dig oaks in California. I've asked around a lot of places and no one can really provide a resource, everyone just says they "have a friend who owns the property they can collect from". I've emailed/called state forestry centers with no solution. Unfortunately my one source of collecting sold their house/ extensive backyard, so I no longer have the option to go search there anymore. Nurseries that sell an abundance of mature coast live oaks are far and few between as well. I do have a coast live oak though.

This nursery grows everything they sell on their property, including the American hornbeams. The last American hornbeam I bought from them has been thriving, shuts down for the winter, and wakes up for the spring. However, there might be something to be said about growing something versus having something that is mature shipped cross-country to a different climate, although I'm unsure if there is science to back that up. The difference between the one I had shipped here from North Carolina, and the one I bought that was grown here has been very noticeable. I'm still unsure if the one I got from NC struggled because of being recently dug/ potted in clay, or the climate change, but we'll find out this year since it's healthy now.

But yeah, I just love hornbeams, shrug. I know Korean hornbeams thrive in California based on talking to local bonsai nurseries, and my own experience, but also pretty difficult to find substantial material. But it appears at least the main nursery I go to said the american hornbeams they grow have no issue. It's also possible that southern California climate vs northern climate is a tipping point for some trees.

 

[BobbyLane]

Sounds like you've built up enough data there, to do the thinking for yourself!

Btw my post was merely to highlight that American Hornbeam make good bonsai candidates. The evidence is overwhelming!

 

[rockm]

Sounds like you've built up enough data there, to do the thinking for yourself!

Btw my post was merely to highlight that American Hornbeam make good bonsai candidates. The evidence is overwhelming!

Yeah, I know they make good bonsai. I've collected a lot of them and had them as bonsai for years, which is why I'm cautious about recommending them to people who live in different climates and California has many and they are pretty diverse.

If they grow for the OP, that's great. Still doesn't get past the fact there are Cal. native species that make excellent bonsai as well and You don't have to be able to collect them yourself. They're pretty readily available from a number of sources.

Trees for sale | Mendocino Coast Bonsai

mcbonsai.com

 

[Scrogdor]

Age on this one is 20 years old, dug 1.5 years ago. My only real question is to I cut the heavy upright first branch back to try and get a new branch to bud that’s more horizontal? Otherwise I love this thing.

 

[BrianBay9]

It's extremely hard to get a permit to dig oaks in California. I've asked around a lot of places and no one can really provide a resource, everyone just says they "have a friend who owns the property they can collect from". I've emailed/called state forestry centers with no solution. Unfortunately my one source of collecting sold their house/ extensive backyard, so I no longer have the option to go search there anymore. Nurseries that sell an abundance of mature coast live oaks are far and few between as well. I do have a coast live oak though.

Yeah, I was lucky to find a couple of acres that were being remediated (contaminated soil removed) prior to skinning the site to develop for light industry. Also had a friend (passed on now, sadly) with a small horse property. Those are the only kind of CLO collecting sites I've found.

 

[BobbyLane]

Age on this one is 20 years old, dug 1.5 years ago. My only real question is to I cut the heavy upright first branch back to try and get a new branch to bud that’s more horizontal? Otherwise I love this thing.

I would allow it to grow out next season then cut back, you may then get something pop on said branch. Let's see it when the leaves are off

 

[BobbyLane]

BTW I wouldn't cut back further than the shoot at the top of said branch, use that shoot to form part of the canopy. It also looks like there's some dormant buds that might stimulate after a cut back around mid June to July. You could treat it like a subtrunk and just have a canopy on top of it if nothing pops.