General opinion on Mimosa (Albizia julibrissen) for bonsai

[Lou T]

Got an update for you all. Dug one of the A. julibrissin I was eyeing out of the forsaken depths of my nursery of employment today. Scooped it on a steal for 5 bones from the nurseryman.





You can see through these photos why I was inclined to describe this specimen as a caudiciform-like rather than rhizomatic as @Cable described. I’m not sure how this basal mass formed but I can only suspect potted neglect.

It looks kinda like a shillelagh now showing no foliage but scratch-test shows green. This thing has tons of character. I think the mode of approach will be to slip-pot it high into some decent soil to show that base and build some fine roots underneath the mass. Do you all think I can expect backbudding along the tissue mass if a hard-prune the stem flush to it? I think that’d be the only decent approach to this thing, looking towards a clump-type piece in the future.

@coh @TN Jim @rockm @just.wing.it @penumbra @BonsaiNaga13 @Vance Wood @Potawatomi13
(Hope I did that right).

 

[rockm]

Would you have felt the results were worth the trouble if your trees had turned out like Bill's? Looking at Bill's specimens it is hard to
come to the conclusion they are "crap for bonsai". Certainly they are difficult subjects but in the right hands they can be beautiful.
Yours apparently weren't the right hands.

Nope My hands weren't expert enough to create a decent tree. Unless you have a talent like Bill's this species is crap.

And no, I don't think they're all that beautiful in nature, at least in the U.S. Like Bradford Pear, they're introduced species that are growing at the expense of truly graceful more beautiful native trees. Like Bradford pears, their blossoms tend to blind people to their considerable structural ugliness--gawky, awkward trunks.

 

[coh]

Nope My hands weren't expert enough to create a decent tree. Unless you have a talent like Bill's this species is crap.

OK, so what have we established.

If you have talent like Bill, this species can become a great bonsai.
If you have talent like rockm, this species cannot become a great bonsai and is essentially crap.

Does that say more about the species or the relative talent levels?

 

[coh]

Got an update for you all. Dug one of the A. julibrissin I was eyeing out of the forsaken depths of my nursery of employment today. Scooped it on a steal for 5 bones from the nurseryman.

Do you all think I can expect backbudding along the tissue mass if a hard-prune the stem flush to it? I think that’d be the only decent approach to this thing, looking towards a clump-type piece in the future.

Are you saying you want to cut the trunk back completely leaving just that base? I think I'd want to establish it in the container for a year before trying something that drastic (just to establish a new root system first). That said, these things are pretty vigorous so it would probably sprout no matter what you did.

 

[Lou T]

Are you saying you want to cut the trunk back completely leaving just that base? I think I'd want to establish it in the container for a year before trying something that drastic (just to establish a new root system first). That said, these things are pretty vigorous so it would probably sprout no matter what you did.

If it is in fact rhizomatic (or holding any starch-reserving organ for that matter, which it indeed seems to be), I don’t see a difference. It’s either going to make it or not. It hasn’t pushed buds yet so making a cut now will save it some energy in hopefully allocating growth along the hemisphere of the base. That’s the way I see it at least. Also, I’ve wasted more than $5 on way worse things.

 

[TN_Jim]

Maybe chop just above your thumb in the photo..? Perhaps put at angle in pot??

Given the leaf size, I’d be weary of a clump style. If that’s the vision, more than 3 trunks may be pushing it.

 

[rockm]

OK, so what have we established.

If you have talent like Bill, this species can become a great bonsai.
If you have talent like rockm, this species cannot become a great bonsai and is essentially crap.

Does that say more about the species or the relative talent levels?

It speaks more to time and effort involved, as well as talent levels. For most people this is a waste of time.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Are you saying you want to cut the trunk back completely leaving just that base? I think I'd want to establish it in the container for a year before trying something that drastic (just to establish a new root system first). That said, these things are pretty vigorous so it would probably sprout no matter what you did.

I dug one out and the tap root was deeper than a foot so I cut it with a spare and the tap root sent off shoots in a few weeks. I didn't even plant the big one we have the seeds just spread from somewhere they're crazy invasive

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

I wouldn't spend any money on one regardless of how cheap, there's plenty far more suitable bonsai material. you basically bought a weed for $5 with a hail Mary plan. If u came across one that needed digging up or had some seeds to mess with cool but buying one doesn't make any sense to me

 

[Lou T]

I wouldn't spend any money on one regardless of how cheap, there's plenty far more suitable bonsai material. you basically bought a weed for $5 with a hail Mary plan. If u came across one that needed digging up or had some seeds to mess with cool but buying one doesn't make any sense to me

Draconian outlook to say the least. I’m going to have to disagree with you and only assume your negative outlook is due to personal failure while working with the species. Nothing wrong with that. Some people don’t agree with some species in some areas. Nevertheless, I will try and I may fail. Only then may I be granted the privledge of brandishing gross ultimatums about plants for bonsai. Cheerio there.

 

[Lou T]

Maybe chop just above your thumb in the photo..? Perhaps put at angle in pot??

Given the leaf size, I’d be weary of a clump style. If that’s the vision, more than 3 trunks may be pushing it.

I see what you mean. Maybe I’ll start there and see where bud sites lead me.

 

[just.wing.it]

The silk tree grow a like a weed here too.
I've only seen 2 specimens that were huge trees.
They were at a farm in VA somewhere.......wish I had pics....maybe I'll track them down....
They were amazing as a large old tree....I was blown away.

I also would not pay for them....I'm sure if you live anywhere where they grow like weeds, you could get a permit to collect on the sides of roadways....where I see them frequently.

 

[Lou T]

The silk tree grow a like a weed here too.
I've only seen 2 specimens that were huge trees.
They were at a farm in VA somewhere.......wish I had pics....maybe I'll track them down....
They were amazing as a large old tree....I was blown away.

I also would not pay for them....I'm sure if you live anywhere where they grow like weeds, you could get a permit to collect on the sides of roadways....where I see them frequently.

Maybe you guys are right. Though I will say I have never seen an Albizia with features quite like this one. We shall see.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

When choosing a tree, the first few inches need to be interesting. That conical volcano of a mass is interesting. So I would say give it a go. I would prune it to just a little, less than an inch above the flair of the base, and plant it deep enough that the sides are only sloping outward, don't expose where it curves back under the caudex. Don't ''slip pot it'' - that makes me crazy. Do a serious, full repot. Take advantage of the opportunity to correct issues with the root system. Slip potting is just as traumatic to the tree as a ''real repotting'', so do your tree a favor and do a real repotting. Set the tree up so that you won't have to mess with the roots for 24 months. That means proper bonsai potting mix and good attention to pruning roots. While albizia is a weed, most trees would be set back by ''slip potting'' just as much as a real repotting. So don't do a half arse job, do a real repotting. Okay, done with my rant.

Yes, normally I would put Albizia on the same list with Catalpa and Walnut. Just not a good choice for bonsai. But you have the key to a good start, an interesting first few inches of trunk. So go for it.

Lastly, I thought other threads had put to rest the issue of age in trees. Trees do not age in the same sense as mammals. Their life spans are open ended. There is no senility. Only attacks by diseases, predation by pests, and abiotic causes such as lightning, wind storms and rock slides kill trees. They never expire of old age. If one were to proactively treat for the known diseases, and insects pests, avoid the fires and wind and other natural disasters, in theory a tree could live thousands of years. Even Albizia, listed by some as a 10 to 20 year tree, could live a thousand years. True the odds of nothing going wrong for 1000 years is astronomically low. Hell, most civilizations don't last that long. Unfortunately Albizia is very susceptible to Fusarium wilt and other vascular wilt diseases. One must treat proactively the minute symptoms show. Fusarium once started can rapidly kill a tree, so in the landscape it is very rare that the gardeners get around to treating before it is too late. In a bonsai pot it is possible to treat, but you need to read up on Fusarium, stock up on the appropriate fungicide approved for use in your state and have it on hand, because the minute you notice symptoms, it is time to treat. Treatment 2 days later will probably be too late. Vascular wilts can progress rapidly. The probability is that one of the vascular wilts will kill at least 50% of all the Albizia planted before it becomes 20 years old is the reason it is listed as a short lived tree.

Article, I forgot who first posted it, but the article thoroughly explains life spans of trees as being open ended. I saved a copy, read it, and you will never say a tree is too short lived for bonsai again. Besides, how many of you actually have a tree that you kept alive more than 25 years? I know some of the BNuts do have a few, but most of us do not. I currently do not, though at one time I did. Then I killed it. Stuff happens. Published life span of a tree is the least of the problems one needs to worry about when trying to keep bonsai alive.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Draconian outlook to say the least. I’m going to have to disagree with you and only assume your negative outlook is due to personal failure while working with the species. Nothing wrong with that. Some people don’t agree with some species in some areas. Nevertheless, I will try and I may fail. Only then may I be granted the privledge of brandishing gross ultimatums about plants for bonsai. Cheerio there.

You spent money on a Woody weed that's just a fact. No assumptions or draconian anything but your money your time. Never said not suitable for bonsai just said not worth spending money on. I have 2 and they were free. Have fun cheers

 

[coh]

Yes, normally I would put Albizia on the same list with Catalpa and Walnut. Just not a good choice for bonsai.

Generally agree with this sentiment but the difference is...can you show me any good examples of bonsai made with catalpa or
walnut? I don't recall ever seeing any, whereas I have seen good bonsai from albizia. Not many, granted, but there are (or were) some
out there.

It's interesting that many of the complaints that people have raised about albizia could also be made about wisteria. Those things
are generally unruly and ugly (or at least not particularly attractive) for most of the year, have giant compound leaves, grow like weeds
and require almost constant pruning and watering, yet people put up with the difficulties because the flower display (2 weeks at best)
is so nice. Why can't the same be said/done with albizia...

 

[plant_dr]

They will also grow and flourish in the State of Utah. My grandparents went to Hawaii one year and brought back some of the seed from Mimosa. My brother grew some of them from seed and several of them were planted at my grandparents home in Salt Lake City Utah. They survived there for many decades.

I know of several specimens in my vicinity 35 miles south of Salt Lake. They seem to wake up later in the spring than most others around here. So much so, that my backyard neighbor chopped theirs down because it was still bare after all the other trees had leafed out. I've thought of collecting some seeds from another one I know of nearby to try and grow.

 

[rockm]

Generally agree with this sentiment but the difference is...can you show me any good examples of bonsai made with catalpa or
walnut? I don't recall ever seeing any, whereas I have seen good bonsai from albizia. Not many, granted, but there are (or were) some
out there.

It's interesting that many of the complaints that people have raised about albizia could also be made about wisteria. Those things
are generally unruly and ugly (or at least not particularly attractive) for most of the year, have giant compound leaves, grow like weeds
and require almost constant pruning and watering, yet people put up with the difficulties because the flower display (2 weeks at best)
is so nice. Why can't the same be said/done with albizia...

apples and oranges...Wisteria is NOT grown for "bonsai" generally. It is grown for its flowers --that is the primary reason to have one. If it works out that it has an interesting trunk, it's gravy. Albizia's flowers turn to slimy mush if they get rained on more than once or twice. Wisteria is spectacular in bloom and aged, characterful trunks can be found. Albizia has neither characteristic.

Not saying not to try one, just that return on your efforts could be frustrating and time is taken away from better candidate species...

 

[penumbra]

apples and oranges...Wisteria is NOT grown for "bonsai" generally. It is grown for its flowers --that is the primary reason to have one. If it works out that it has an interesting trunk, it's gravy. Albizia's flowers turn to slimy mush if they get rained on more than once or twice. Wisteria is spectacular in bloom and aged, characterful trunks can be found. Albizia has neither characteristic.

Not saying not to try one, just that return on your efforts could be frustrating and time is taken away from better candidate species...

I like both apples and oranges but I consent that some do not.

 

[Lou T]

When choosing a tree, the first few inches need to be interesting. That conical volcano of a mass is interesting. So I would say give it a go. I would prune it to just a little, less than an inch above the flair of the base, and plant it deep enough that the sides are only sloping outward, don't expose where it curves back under the caudex. Don't ''slip pot it'' - that makes me crazy. Do a serious, full repot. Take advantage of the opportunity to correct issues with the root system. Slip potting is just as traumatic to the tree as a ''real repotting'', so do your tree a favor and do a real repotting. Set the tree up so that you won't have to mess with the roots for 24 months. That means proper bonsai potting mix and good attention to pruning roots. While albizia is a weed, most trees would be set back by ''slip potting'' just as much as a real repotting. So don't do a half arse job, do a real repotting. Okay, done with my rant.

Yes, normally I would put Albizia on the same list with Catalpa and Walnut. Just not a good choice for bonsai. But you have the key to a good start, an interesting first few inches of trunk. So go for it.

Lastly, I thought other threads had put to rest the issue of age in trees. Trees do not age in the same sense as mammals. Their life spans are open ended. There is no senility. Only attacks by diseases, predation by pests, and abiotic causes such as lightning, wind storms and rock slides kill trees. They never expire of old age. If one were to proactively treat for the known diseases, and insects pests, avoid the fires and wind and other natural disasters, in theory a tree could live thousands of years. Even Albizia, listed by some as a 10 to 20 year tree, could live a thousand years. True the odds of nothing going wrong for 1000 years is astronomically low. Hell, most civilizations don't last that long. Unfortunately Albizia is very susceptible to Fusarium wilt and other vascular wilt diseases. One must treat proactively the minute symptoms show. Fusarium once started can rapidly kill a tree, so in the landscape it is very rare that the gardeners get around to treating before it is too late. In a bonsai pot it is possible to treat, but you need to read up on Fusarium, stock up on the appropriate fungicide approved for use in your state and have it on hand, because the minute you notice symptoms, it is time to treat. Treatment 2 days later will probably be too late. Vascular wilts can progress rapidly. The probability is that one of the vascular wilts will kill at least 50% of all the Albizia planted before it becomes 20 years old is the reason it is listed as a short lived tree.

Article, I forgot who first posted it, but the article thoroughly explains life spans of trees as being open ended. I saved a copy, read it, and you will never say a tree is too short lived for bonsai again. Besides, how many of you actually have a tree that you kept alive more than 25 years? I know some of the BNuts do have a few, but most of us do not. I currently do not, though at one time I did. Then I killed it. Stuff happens. Published life span of a tree is the least of the problems one needs to worry about when trying to keep bonsai alive.

As always, thank you for the informative write-up and reference, Leo. I’m going to give that a read. I never knew this about trees. Though it does make sense in that

apples and oranges...Wisteria is NOT grown for "bonsai" generally. It is grown for its flowers --that is the primary reason to have one. If it works out that it has an interesting trunk, it's gravy. Albizia's flowers turn to slimy mush if they get rained on more than once or twice. Wisteria is spectacular in bloom and aged, characterful trunks can be found. Albizia has neither characteristic.

Not saying not to try one, just that return on your efforts could be frustrating and time is taken away from better candidate species...

you should look at the photos of the specimen with the “caudex” I took. If you don’t consider that character then I wonder how ancient and stoic your trees look.