Fungus amungus

[Tbwilson33]

I think you're quibbling.

No I’m honestly confused on what your point is stemming back to you comment of the bad underlying assumptions. Since then I’m more confused.

 

[Tbwilson33]

Not trying to “quibble”

 

[AlainK]

Autant d'individus, autant de conceptions différentes.

Those who live in Michigan don't have the same environment as those who live in Alabama, Illinois, Connecticut, France, Slovakia, etc.

Climate, local pests and diseases are not the same in places where the soil is frozen 2 months per year and has dry hot summers than where it rains all year long in mild temperatures.

So obvious. Quibbling is useless, as much as feeling quibbled too, if that can be said

 

[fredman]

. And a strong, healthy tree is less prone to bugs invasion...

That's the key. There are kazilions of fungi (and other microbes) of different species on and around the tree....mostly around the rootzone. Most are there protecting it. The majority are keeping the few bad ones at bay....mostly out competing them by numbers, thus starving them from food and space. When a fungicide is used, all fungi is killed...even the sought after mycorrhizae ones.
The reason the bad fungi is doing its "work" is because something is wrong. That's why they are there in the first place. They are nature's scavengers. They're merely reacting to the plant's signals that its in strive. The silution is to find and fix the problem/reason why it is there.

 

[Littlejoe919]

That's the key. There are kazilions of fungi (and other microbes) of different species on and around the tree....mostly around the rootzone. Most are there protecting it. The majority are keeping the few bad ones at bay....mostly out competing them by numbers, thus starving them from food and space. When a fungicide is used, all fungi is killed...even the sought after mycorrhizae ones.
The reason the bad fungi is doing its "work" is because something is wrong. That's why they are there in the first place. They are nature's scavengers. They're merely reacting to the plant's signals that its in strive. The silution is to find and fix the problem/reason why it is there.

This makes sense to me. Most of my tree's showing signs have been repotted this spring. The ponderosa had needle cast when it showed up on my door last year. It was treated, but I don't want it to recur and affect my other pines. I would assume, covering the soil is a must when spraying.

Thank you all for the conversation.

 

[TN_Jim]

Autant d'individus, autant de conceptions différentes.

Those who live in Michigan don't have the same environment as those who live in Alabama, Illinois, Connecticut, France, Slovakia, etc.

Climate, local pests and diseases are not the same in places where the soil is frozen 2 months per year and has dry hot summers than where it rains all year long in mild temperatures.

So obvious. Quibbling is useless, as much as feeling quibbled too, if that can be said

What you said.
I’m reminded of a person that dug-up some roses in a location that only get late day sun...fungal issue. The dew falls on leaves, there are x hrs. before the sun evaporated that dew -good conditions for fungal problems depending on the species.

Options -treat or remove, regardless of which, the issue is the sun drying the dew or not (?) Guns N’ Roses

 

[Potawatomi13]

A copper fungicide will hold the widest options for both Acer and Pinus. Timing is key.

Copper fungicide damaged immature/unhardened leaves of personal Vine Maple. Forgot brand name after disposal of empty.

 

[Potawatomi13]

This makes sense to me. Most of my tree's showing signs have been repotted this spring. The ponderosa had needle cast when it showed up on my door last year. It was treated, but I don't want it to recur and affect my other pines. I would assume, covering the soil is a must when spraying.

Thank you all for the conversation.

Likely bad idea. Ponderosa/Pines all rely heavily on fungal symbiotes on roots so personal belief is do not treat pot for fungus. For fungus do only topical on Pine.

 

[Littlejoe919]

Likely bad idea. Ponderosa/Pines all rely heavily on fungal symbiotes on roots so personal belief is do not treat pot for fungus. For fungus do only topical on Pine.

I think there was a misunderstanding. My intent was to protect the soil from the fungicide.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I believe there was a trade or a science article stating that either Cleary's 3666 or Daconil, I forget which, did not harm mycorrhiza. I will need to dig.

 

[fredman]

Micorrhizae don't do well in situations where fertilizers is added.
Their main roll is to mine and dissolve mostly phosphorus that it transports to the plant in exchange for its carbon it gets from the plant. It supplies some other nutrient metals to, but mainly P and N.
Its a simbiotic relationship between the plant and the fungi. Both get what they need from each other.
The problem is when the plant is supplied with all its needs through fertilization, it don't need the fungi anymore. The plant stops exuding nutrients to the fungi (and bacteria etc) simply because it don't need it anymore. The fungi may die off as a consequence.
Also fertilizers (especially high P ones) have a negative impact on the growth and development of micorrhizal fungi.

 

[Littlejoe919]

Micorrhizae don't do well in situations where fertilizers is added.
Their main roll is to mine and dissolve mostly phosphorus that it transports to the plant in exchange for its carbon it gets from the plant. It supplies some other nutrient metals to, but mainly P and N.
Its a simbiotic relationship between the plant and the fungi. Both get what they need from each other.
The problem is when the plant is supplied with all its needs through fertilization, it don't need the fungi anymore. The plant stops exuding nutrients to the fungi (and bacteria etc) simply because it don't need it anymore. The fungi may die off as a consequence.
Also fertilizers (especially high P ones) have a negative impact on the growth and development of micorrhizal fungi.

I use Biogold on everything. I'm not positive (I can't read japanese) but I think it's 7-7-7.

 

[fredman]

Yeah Biogold is good stuff I hear. The same holds for organic fertz. If the tree receives its nutrients from somewhere else, it don't need the fungi.
The situation is P is very tightly bound in the soil. Plants has it difficult to absorb it. That's why most plants (up to 90% I think) form simbiotic relationships with different micorrhizae out there.
When they are fed through artificial means though, they drop all those associations.

 

[TN_Jim]

Yeah Biogold is good stuff I hear. The same holds for organic fertz. If the tree receives its nutrients from somewhere else, it don't need the fungi.
The situation is P is very tightly bound in the soil. Plants has it difficult to absorb it. That's why most plants (up to 90% I think) form simbiotic relationships with different micorrhizae out there.
When they are fed through artificial means though, they drop all those associations.

I’m thinking that’s not true.

 

[fredman]

I’m thinking that’s not true

Which part?

 

[fredman]

Spent some time and looked it up. These extracts are from Jeff Lowenfel's book Teaming with fungi.

 

[TN_Jim]

When they are fed through artificial means though, they drop all those associations.[/QUOTE]

I saw some papers that indicated a decrease in abundance in some associated species (mycorrhiza). But my first take botanically was that “all” seems too bold a brush.
This is a fascinating topic and I’m glad you brought this to the surface. I’m not trying to refute your assertion. This is a bit out of my wheel house.

Here’s a paper that sees both decreases and increases depending on fungal species. However, it’s not specifically a tree paper. That said, the vast majority of the research I saw appeared to support building myco communities and ‘warn’ of synth fertilizer being associated with building.

Again, the word, all, was what threw me...and it really seems like I have seen folks who exclusively use miracle grow that still have mycorrhiza when they repot.
https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1469-8137.2002.00470.x

 

[TN_Jim]

When they are fed through artificial means though, they drop all those associations.

I saw some papers that indicated a decrease in abundance in some associated species (mycorrhiza). But my first take botanically was that “all” seems too bold a brush.
This is a fascinating topic and I’m glad you brought this to the surface. I’m not trying to refute your assertion. This is a bit out of my wheel house.

Here’s a paper that sees both decreases and increases depending on fungal species. However, it’s not specifically a tree paper. That said, the vast majority of the research I saw appeared to support building myco communities and ‘warn’ of synth fertilizer being associated with building.

Again, the word, all, was what threw me...and it really seems like I have seen folks who exclusively use miracle grow that still have mycorrhiza when they repot.
https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1469-8137.2002.00470.x[/QUOTE]
...while not not exclusively, the authors did observe tree spp. though -this was conducted on a volcano

 

[fredman]

This is a fascinating topic and I’m glad you brought this to the surface. I’m not trying to refute your assertion. This is a bit out of my wheel house.

All good mate. Yes it truly is fascinating. When i dove into this i never dreamt of discovering so many wonders inside the soil. I was blissfully unaware what really exists down there.
The thing is there's more than 100 000 different known fungal species, with even more being discovered.
They either are decayers and nutrient recyclers, parasites/pathogens or symbiotic organisms.
The symbiotic ones we are talking about are only visible with at least a 400× enlarged microscope. To complicate things further, different plants form associations with different micorrhizal fungi species. Some plants form association with more than one micorrhizal species.
The white fluffy ones we see regularly (the ones you refer to above) in pots and in the soil, are the recycle/decaying ones. They don't form symbiotic relationships with roots. What we have to understand is micorrhizal associations have evolved in organic situations in nature. Plants in general don't have it easy finding and absorbing nutrients (they have to work and expend energy to get to it)...especially P and N.
The symbiotic ones main objective is to keep its host (the plant) alive and thriving because that's where it gets its food (carbon) from. The plant on the other hand does benefit greatly, but it has to use energy to exude the exudates to feed the fungi.
Now...when the soil is drenched with fertilizer for the plant, it don't need to use that much energy to look for nutrients....its all around its root zone. All it has to do is absorb it. Its basically being force fed. It don't need to expend energy to feed the fungi anymore. That will be the case with all micorrhizal/plant symbiotic relationships. As soon as free food is available, its everyone for itself.
Its entirely possible to grow micorrhizae in a hydroponic or inorganic bonsai soil setup, but the fertilizer levels have to be kept low...P not more than 70 PPM. Soil must be kept well oxygenated. They don't multiply well in such conditions though. The media will have to be inoculated with the appropriate specie that associates with the specific tree.

 

[TN_Jim]

@fredman, thank you for your well thought informed response. I agree with everything that you are saying except for the assertion that decrease in symbiotic
fungi associations under the application of non organic P will occur ALL of the time and fungi will prove to nonexistent. I may have missed something, but that’s what I got....synth fert. (P) + all (spp.) = 0 symbiotic fungi

The findings in the publication linked above says both your findings and my head scratching wonder while assessing arbuscular myc. (AM) in plots fertilized for over a decade and close to it are both correct. Some AM will prosper, some will not. Regardless, the above paper (which is not my flag that I stand behind) found no significant results despite up and down fungal AM species dependent variation.

That said, this is not a study of the bonsai container, or any container, but this is what we have to work off of because we have (non-bonsai) science, research, and container experience.

In my digging before this, the more I find lends organic over synthetic and I tend to completely agree there too; however, the assertion that synthetic P will render a plant devoid of AM I’m still not onboard with, and I find it questionable advice....

Especially to those new to bonsai or plants in general, or anybody. Plants that may not have X symbiosis, and could use some phosphorus for example, but ol pole cat says fuck it, Fred said my blue wonder renders my soil devoid...

P & K seem more important at the end of the day if I had to choose two among....back to the thread...P & K help contend with pathogens and afflictions fungal or not