For Sifu
- Thread starter Anthony
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No, Anthony, that is not what I what I would call a shallow pot!
First, the tape measure obscured it, so I can't really see it!
Second, the soil is mounded! Which is poor technique. The tree should be placed soil that the surface of the soil is flat, with only the nebari higher than the rim.
Here are some examples of what you should be striving for:
The tree above is owned by a friend who grows mostly deciduous trees. He keeps it in this pot all the time. The height of the pot is about the same as the caliper of the tree. The soil surface is flat, no mounding.
Here are some other examples:
The tree above does have a bit of mounding. The pot is very shallow.
These are just a couple of examples I had saved on my phone. But they show trees planted in pots which many would consider to be "trays" rather than "pots". And most would think there's little water holding capacity in these flatter pots, but as Scott has shown us, more water can be retained in soil configured in a broad flat shape rather than in a taller more cubical shape.
First, the tape measure obscured it, so I can't really see it!
Second, the soil is mounded! Which is poor technique. The tree should be placed soil that the surface of the soil is flat, with only the nebari higher than the rim.
Here are some examples of what you should be striving for:
The tree above is owned by a friend who grows mostly deciduous trees. He keeps it in this pot all the time. The height of the pot is about the same as the caliper of the tree. The soil surface is flat, no mounding.
Here are some other examples:
The tree above does have a bit of mounding. The pot is very shallow.
These are just a couple of examples I had saved on my phone. But they show trees planted in pots which many would consider to be "trays" rather than "pots". And most would think there's little water holding capacity in these flatter pots, but as Scott has shown us, more water can be retained in soil configured in a broad flat shape rather than in a taller more cubical shape.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Ah, I see.
But Sifu,
it was planted on a mound because that is how it was seen in nature.
None the less, a shallower pot shall be found.
Thank you.
Good Day
Anthony
But Sifu,
it was planted on a mound because that is how it was seen in nature.
None the less, a shallower pot shall be found.
Thank you.
Good Day
Anthony
Nature happens by accident. Where a seed falls may not be optimal for the tree.
We want to keep surface roots alive, yes? We want to build a flaired nebari, yes?
Planting up on a mound makes it harder to keep fine roots close to the trunk alive. The soil dries out faster there than lower down. The tree is encouraged to send roots down to the bottom of the pot (or at least lower) to find moisture. So, the fine roots near the trunk die!
If you want a spreading nebari, make the tree send roots out, not down. And, again, having the trunk lower in the pot assures there's moisture closer to the trunk, so the roots close to the trunk will live.
Also, planting high on a mound tends to send water running down the hill towards the edge of the pot. Allowing the mass of soil directly under the tree to stay dry.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Thank you once again Sifu, for taking the time to respond.
The Fustic though it has surface roots, they are short and mostly below the soil in Nature.
So expect say 2' of root off of the trunk to be shown.
The effort would end up - mannerised - which isn't quite what one would want.
Also remember Sifu our soil mix for thirsty trees carries crushed red brick. So after the
first watering the brick is retaining moisture.
We don't get what your describing.
Remember when we checked the older trees [ 30 years +] we found no root thickening.
Nor any loss of canopy density, no death of fine branchlets.
Our soil mix was built on the idea that the ease of obtaining food would negate the thickening
of roots in the pot.
This is also why I mentioned the use of the mesh and peat moss.
You need to understand that Trinidad from Christmas to June has no rain and we take advantage
of that by repotting on Jan.2nd.
We can control the watering and the soil mix can be made as we wish.
By June when the rain falls heavily, the tree has mastered the soil.
However with the Fustic and periods of dryness, this will set off a self defoliation.
This dry period is called the Petite Carime, or a little relief.
Also since we lie outside of the Hurricane's path by 1 deg.
When you get bashed, we go dry.
You also have to remember , we are not as hot or as humid as you are, just not cold enough to
go below 66 deg,F
It is a mild climate and allows us a lot more leeway.
Hope that helps.
Thanks again.
Good Day
Anthony
* By the way Fustic as a wood is yellow, hard and durable.
The Fustic though it has surface roots, they are short and mostly below the soil in Nature.
So expect say 2' of root off of the trunk to be shown.
The effort would end up - mannerised - which isn't quite what one would want.
Also remember Sifu our soil mix for thirsty trees carries crushed red brick. So after the
first watering the brick is retaining moisture.
We don't get what your describing.
Remember when we checked the older trees [ 30 years +] we found no root thickening.
Nor any loss of canopy density, no death of fine branchlets.
Our soil mix was built on the idea that the ease of obtaining food would negate the thickening
of roots in the pot.
This is also why I mentioned the use of the mesh and peat moss.
You need to understand that Trinidad from Christmas to June has no rain and we take advantage
of that by repotting on Jan.2nd.
We can control the watering and the soil mix can be made as we wish.
By June when the rain falls heavily, the tree has mastered the soil.
However with the Fustic and periods of dryness, this will set off a self defoliation.
This dry period is called the Petite Carime, or a little relief.
Also since we lie outside of the Hurricane's path by 1 deg.
When you get bashed, we go dry.
You also have to remember , we are not as hot or as humid as you are, just not cold enough to
go below 66 deg,F
It is a mild climate and allows us a lot more leeway.
Hope that helps.
Thanks again.
Good Day
Anthony
* By the way Fustic as a wood is yellow, hard and durable.
Lobaeux
Shohin
Sorry to intrude on your guys' post, but I learned quite a bit from this. Thanks!
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Ah Sifu,
thought about you looking through - Cllassic Bonsai of Japan - you are absolutely correct - over did on the mounding.
Thanks, will correct.
Good Day
Anthony
* You are most welcome Lobaeux
thought about you looking through - Cllassic Bonsai of Japan - you are absolutely correct - over did on the mounding.
Thanks, will correct.
Good Day
Anthony
* You are most welcome Lobaeux
Good. I've raised your awareness!
Overpotting, especially "mounding" is so common that many believe it's acceptable. Or, think that's just the way it's supposed to be done!
Not at all!
Look at the Kokofu books and see that the best trees have the soil flat.
In fact, when looking at any bonsai practitioners trees, observe the way they pot. Primarily flat? Or mounded? That simple observation will give you great insights into their competence.
An exception can be made for Shohin. Those pots are really small, so sometimes exceptions are allowed.
Even then:
wireme
Masterpiece
I don't think you should judge too quickly without knowing the circumstances. How many times has the tree been repotted? What kind of root system is the practitioner dealing with? What kind of pot selection is available? Not everyone is repotting trees with established root pads and a bunch of pot sizes to play with. Almost all my trees have wound up mounded so far. Doesn't mean they will be next time around or that I really want it that way. I guess my repots are not the shining example of competence around here but I haven't killed one upon repot yet, not one. Mostly first or second repots of collected conifers.
Just saying, don't judge too much, you might not have all the info you need to do so.
Mounding also not always frowned upon. https://crataegus.com/2014/03/19/repotting-tip-o-the-month/
Some comments by Chris in this old thread about practices he's learning from R.N.
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/heres-another.11854/
Wireme,
We were discussing trees in bonsai pots. Not intermediate steps in transitioning from collected material.
Except... on your collected material... if you want to have fine feeder roots up close to the trunk, don't mound the soil. It's not a matter of "killing the tree", but a matter of keeping the little feeder roots alive. Mounding often results in those little feeders close to the trunk having their soil eroded away over time with watering. Then they dry out and die. Sure, the tree lives, but you could have had some footage close in. The proper way would have been to bury the entire rootball deeper in the growbox upon collection, and nurture those close in roots keeping them alive and healthy.
Now... I don't live in an area where we collect trees like you do. But I have traveled to California many times and been in workshops with guys who do collect. And when they collect, they build grow boxes tall enough to preserve the roots closest to the trunk, filling the boxes up level with pumice. Burying those little feeders so they won't dry out.
We were discussing trees in bonsai pots. Not intermediate steps in transitioning from collected material.
Except... on your collected material... if you want to have fine feeder roots up close to the trunk, don't mound the soil. It's not a matter of "killing the tree", but a matter of keeping the little feeder roots alive. Mounding often results in those little feeders close to the trunk having their soil eroded away over time with watering. Then they dry out and die. Sure, the tree lives, but you could have had some footage close in. The proper way would have been to bury the entire rootball deeper in the growbox upon collection, and nurture those close in roots keeping them alive and healthy.
Now... I don't live in an area where we collect trees like you do. But I have traveled to California many times and been in workshops with guys who do collect. And when they collect, they build grow boxes tall enough to preserve the roots closest to the trunk, filling the boxes up level with pumice. Burying those little feeders so they won't dry out.
And I went back and look at your links.
Those situations are the "exceptions to the rules", where a very small pot is chosen for aesthetic reasons, and mounding is required to have enough soil. Much like the Shohin exception.
But, looking at the Hagedorn blog, a flat surface is the norm, not the exception.
Those situations are the "exceptions to the rules", where a very small pot is chosen for aesthetic reasons, and mounding is required to have enough soil. Much like the Shohin exception.
But, looking at the Hagedorn blog, a flat surface is the norm, not the exception.
namnhi
Masterpiece
I see most of Dan Robinson trees are mounded. Does that mean he doesn't know the rule? Who come up with all this rules? If the tree looks good mounded then mounded. Why are you trying very hard to get people to follow all these rules?
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
He's more of a naturalist...love his work!
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
This is a great thread!
Calm disagreements/understandings of ideas.
Well done.
Sounds like the fastest way to a Bonsai pot with a proper rootball.
Something creative dirtbags can manage!
Anthony, your temps sounds like @fredman s temps.
What is it about islands?
You guys are evolving out there just like anything else on an island....
Weirdos!
Sorce
Calm disagreements/understandings of ideas.
Well done.
Sounds like the fastest way to a Bonsai pot with a proper rootball.
Something creative dirtbags can manage!
Anthony, your temps sounds like @fredman s temps.
What is it about islands?
You guys are evolving out there just like anything else on an island....
Weirdos!
Sorce
It's not a "rule" just for the sake of having rules.
It's a healthier way to grow a tree in an artificial environment: a pot!
Have you read the MarkyScott thread on soil physics? I suggest you do. It describes the way water acts in a pot. And it may not act like you think it does!
If you grow trees on a slab or use a very small pot, then sure, it has to be mounded. But most of the time you should use a properly shaped and sized pot. And when you do, your tree will be healthier with a flat soil surface.
Rules... the "rules" in bonsai are guidelines to help you be more successful. If you are a beginner, I always suggest you follow the rules to enhance your chances of success. Once you have gained some success and experience, then you can experiment with "breaking the rules". Bonsai has enough challenges even if you follow all the "rules" to a T, you might suffer some losses. We all have.
All the "rules" have a reason to be "rules". Doesn't mean they can't be broken. But, you have to understand why they're there before you go about ignoring them.
@Cadillictaste: Dan and I have very different ideas of what a bonsai should look like. But, he said very nice things about my very Classical JBP:
By the way, the pruning scars he was complaining about are probably 20 years old! Lol!!! Yes, they will be there a long, long time!
fredman
Masterpiece
Hey wathchit....
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Lol!
No worries...
They WANT me banished to an island!
If you's are weirdos.....I am your king....
Or least the kings jester!
Sorce
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
@Adair...rules...are guidelines are they not!?! Some are more strict than others. I can appreciate the talent that goes into both the classical and the naturalist style. But sometimes I see a more of an out of the box thinker with Dan's. To boldly take those risks and bend the rules. Now...one with classes as yourself...I'm assuming your teacher Boon is of the similar thought process as yourself. Which is why you chose him. Having the monetary teaching that you have. I would imagine is where the rules are more set in stone. Nothing wrong with that either...and because of that...and your teaching is where your stand on bonsai lays. But many respect Dan's work...even though not in the classical sense. To him...and his style sense...a level pot could be put of place in some instances. So one might say...the tree can at times dictate that Grey area. Right? Just ponderings...
The scar he mentions was that one that came with the tree? Or one you created? And...if you created it. Do you somewhat see his point...yet,this stage in the game. As amazing as it is...I doubt you hold any remorse. It's a fine specimen tree Adair...one you should be very proud of.
The scar he mentions was that one that came with the tree? Or one you created? And...if you created it. Do you somewhat see his point...yet,this stage in the game. As amazing as it is...I doubt you hold any remorse. It's a fine specimen tree Adair...one you should be very proud of.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
You're thread post...is going to have me pulling out @grouper52'a book and admire those trees of Dan's once more.
