Elm Through Tile

Well it has been two years, yes I stuck it back and forgot about it. Should have pulled it last year. Lots of roots, flat where tile was. Trimmed roots back and trying to figure out what's next, let grow or reduce it down some. Any thoughts? 20170611_193510.jpg 20170612_065051.jpg 20170611_193454.jpg
 
Matter of fact, ever heard of Hanford Nuclear Reservation?
As a matter of fact ....Yes! As a kid I always thought the fruits of our nuclear achievements in the "bomb" were the results of Hanford, California. I was corrected that it was Hanford, Washington. So much for geography.....

And that would explain the roots that looks like something from a science fiction movie from the bottom of the ocean. I'm sure it could wreak havoc on Godzirra!
 
I thought that it would form some on its own with the tile but usually things go south because I failed to follow correct procedures. Then I am lucky enough to have knowledgeable people like yourself to help me grow and learn. Why is there no TAPER? Lack of age/growth or improper methods?
 
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The top side of the nebari is not obvious in the photo's, but looking from below it looks like there is one dominant root. That is the same problem i had with plants trough tiles. Some are good and then create taper right at the base, but most grow a one sided root system. Groundlayering gives a more uniform result for me. I would trim back hard and watch what happens. There must be some taper down low?
 
Don't you think I have been hanging long enough? GIVE ME THE ANSWER! Please.
 
Guess it was a go but now back to the and next tree up!
 
I thought that it would form some on its own with the tile but usually things go south because I failed to follow correct procedures. Then I am lucky enough to have knowledgeable people like yourself to help me grow and learn. Why is there no TAPER? Lack of age/growth or improper methods?
I'm sure you know.
You've got one big, heavy branch - what happens if you cut it?
You've got one big, heavy root - what happens if you cut it?
In general, we "control" growth by weakening what gets too strong.

Blinding flash of the obvious,

If you cut the branch, it trends to produce more branches from there (you can later eliminate the ones you don't want). Sometimes you also get new branches closer to the trunk. Even though there are exceptions, you are best of to always leave some green when you cut.

If you cut the root, it trends to make roots from there. Often it makes more roots closer to the trunk. You can cut a root pretty much wherever you want.

What else is there to know?

The big branch you cut won't get thicker until the shoot(s) at the end becomes nearly the same size.

You can wrap wire around stems to hold them in the position you want.

Lastly, there is the magic of layering. You can read the BNut resource on this.


Cut it, wire it, water it. See what happens.

Sorry, I've forgotten what the question was, but I'm sure you know the answer of you take a little time and think it through. ;)
 
I thought we were discussing the lack of taper in the base of the trunk? I thought growing against the tile would create some flair.
 
I thought we were discussing the lack of taper in the base of the trunk? I thought growing against the tile would create some flair.
I'm sorry, I think you thought I had the answer, and I have no idea. A guy asked about this some time ago, it may have been you. About if this would work on elms, since I had been showing some of the tridents I have done. I think I answered " don't know, never tried it". I, like Oso think that this should have created some flare. I would conjecture, theorize, make a supposition, what ever you wish to call it, that unlike tridents these elms create roots so easily that the roots just grow under the tile without layering off. It's the layering at the tile line that creates the flare. As the tree grows, ( more slowly) the sugars build up on the top of the tile, increasing girth there until the tree just issues roots above the tile to complete it's cycle, sort of like having no use for the part under the tile.

Tridents grow large in the trunk fast, while elms are not so quick to thicken. That be part of the answer....just a hunch?
 
Here is what was 3 thru a washer last spring.

One turned AE...one didn't grow...so I cut em out.

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I scraped down to the washer 3 times last year and removed roots growing too high.

You should make the soil below the tile less hospitable...
Soft Akadama? Mud? Sure not earth !

Still no good roots above the washer, but it got flare.

Pretty sure it's tinkering between growing them or dying.

@GailC the air layer died...this is the next candidate, although at the rate this is progressing....
I may have to convince @M. Frary or @aml1014 to send you a Siberian !

:confused::mad:

Sorce
 
Smoke........ I thought that you know everything. That is why I was waiting for an answer. Surely I could have done something better. I can try again, I have about 25 seedlings, all it takes is time.

Source........ All of the roots in my photo were above the tile. Below the tile was the original root system that was quite clearly of no use.
What I ended up with is a flat on the bottom root pad
No flare at the soil line
A tall thin tree, that in part to me not giving it quality care is not as vigorous as it should be
A project that I really don't know where I am headed
What I had hoped for was a flat root pad with good flair that I could thicken up over time, then do a trunk chop to start building the upper trunk.

Oh well.......
 
Smoke........ I thought that you know everything.

He does, but is too modest to admit it. I am Mr. Knowitall (in theory). :p

I have said it many times before that swelling will occur if the auxin flow is interrupted. The only auxin that matters is the auxin transported from one cambium cell to another, so it comes down to interrupting the cambium bucket brigade. This is exactly what happens when girdles a stem for a layer OR applies a tourniquet to it OR tightly wraps wire around it OR threads the stem though another (i.e., a thread graft).

The magical part of layering is that excess auxin in the cambium can make stem cells morph into root tissue! It is not guaranteed this magic will happen as it seems to go away with maturity of the tree and distance from the ground level in many species, but if it happens, it happens. If the beginnings of roots emerge into a moist environment, they can continue growing into roots. If not, they get air pruned. Hence, the long-standing advice to keep grafts dry. Conversely, pack sphagnum around a branch with which wiring has 'bitten in' and you might get roots. Hence the flare that occurs at the top of a girdle and/or above a tourniquet. Keep it dry and there will not be roots; damp, likely.

So, when roots are growing from the swelling, auxin is consumed and the tendency to swell is lost because there is no longer any interruption of the cambium and hence no accumulated excess of auxin in it. Which brings us to an idea: if you want flare, apply a tourniquet (or tightly wrapped spiral of wire) and keep it dry until you've gotten what you want (or it is clear that is all you're going to get). Then pack it in a moist environment of sphagnum, pearlite, your favorite substrate, etc., to generate roots.

In many respects, it would seem to make sense that screwing a layer or flat bottomed trunk to a board might help generate flare. My results have been mixed. So, I am skeptical that it does much, in fact. On the other hand, I've had acer palmatum layers produce just one or two sizable roots just on one side (no roots anywhere else around the stem). Nevertheless, a big fat 'skirt' formed around the entire periphery of what was the top of the girdle. It takes several seasons, but roots will and/or can eventually form around the entire periphery.

I haven't tried any of this specifically with elms, but the basics are the same. I've got a multiple trunks threaded through a pot bottom similar to @Smoke's experiment, but I'm using horse chestnuts. I had some flare and a few roots above the pot bottom from last year, this spring, so I don't think I'm going to get a whole lot of flare - should have left it above ground and dry last year, IMHO (hmmm, I could go out there and cut those off; just a question of whether the old roots are nearly starved to death or not).
 
Very interesting method going on here. Ive known about the other (over, not through) tile method for creating wicked nebari.

I can see the benefit though. So in theory could somebody wrap the roots up and around the tile, and root graft on the bulge?
 
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