Effects of Fertilizer vs Compost vs Raw Manure?

[JackHammer]

It's not a quick simple answer.
The answer is in the links I posted but not directly


The center is where the droppings landed in concentration. The form of nitrogen in the droppings is in a form not easily used by plants and in fact burns the plants so they die

As you move out from the center, the concentration goes down as the nitrogen leaches out and is converted to more usable forms of nitrogen through decomposition by microbes and the nitrogen cycle happens.. Where you see the strong growth is where the toxic forms of nitrogen are gone and the highest concentration of usable nitrogen is so you get the most lush growth.

Similar happens when a dog urinates on the lawn just usually a bigger dead spot.

Anecdotally, I disagree. The bird manure has a lot of ammonia which may be the issue in that case. For the dog - my dog pees in the same spot and it is the most luscious grass in the whole yard. That could be the extra frequent waterings though.

Not saying you are wrong, but I have had different experiences.

 

[JackHammer]

Do you guys put meat in your compost? I have in the past and after a while, I can dig it up and it is covered in earthworms. They love it.
I don't love the smell but a tall pile can do a lot to mitigate that.
I will also save the bones and toss them on the vegetable beds or into a pot before planting it.
I never knew why people say to not compost meat, bones or fat.

 

[ShadyStump]

Do you guys put meat in your compost? I have in the past and after a while, I can dig it up and it is covered in earthworms. They love it.
I don't love the smell but a tall pile can do a lot to mitigate that.
I will also save the bones and toss them on the vegetable beds or into a pot before planting it.
I never knew why people say to not compost meat, bones or fat.

I've run into this too.
It's the smell mostly. Rotting meat can be quite repulsive. Another factor is the propensity of animal tissue to carry parasites that could then be transferred to your compost, and in turn to your garden bed and the raw vegetables you eat. If you're compost pile is reaching high enough temps, though, it should kill most if not all meat born parasites.

I have heard of setups specifically designed for composting meat, but have never tried it.

Some say it's too high in nitrogen, but there's a mountain of ways to work around that.

 

[Lutonian]

I've run into this too.
It's the smell mostly. Rotting meat can be quite repulsive. Another factor is the propensity of animal tissue to carry parasites that could then be transferred to your compost, and in turn to your garden bed and the raw vegetables you eat. If you're compost pile is reaching high enough temps, though, it should kill most if not all meat born parasites.

I have heard of setups specifically designed for composting meat, but have never tried it.

Some say it's too high in nitrogen, but there's a mountain of ways to work around that.

composting meat and fat etc attracts vermin, fly & scavengers if you want to compost these items bokashi them first then compost them and it does not smell or attract animals. There is a lot of wild claims with bokashi but the main benefit I find is the ability to compost item like you mentioned and the fact after the bokashi process it composts quicker. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokashi_(horticulture)

 

[leatherback]

Plants take up nutrients in their small, non-bound form.

For metals this is as their Ion, So.. Calcium needs to be in Ca++, Iron in Fe++ etc.

For non-metals such as Nitrogen and Phosphorous this normally is in an oxidized form but N can also be taken up as ammonia.

e.g. https://talkinghydroponics.com/2018/02/13/how-roots-absorb-nutrients/

Soil and Plant Nutrition - SlideServe

Soil and Plant Nutrition. Chapter 37. Nutritional Needs. Autotrophic does not mean autonomous plants need… sun as an energy source inorganic compounds as raw materials water (H 2 O) CO 2 minerals. Macronutrients. Plants require these nutrients in relatively large amounts

www.slideserve.com

The nice thing about "chemical" fertilizer is that the main nutrients used by the plant are provided in a form that the roots can absorp them without outside help.

Now we move to compost. Compost is rotted / fermented plant material. It is high in carbon, and nutrients are still mostly bound in organic molucules & organic complexes. A plant cannot directly take these nutrients. This is where the mycchoriza and bacteria come in. These are able to break down the organic components and live off that. They subsequently release the nutrients in simpler forms, and particularly with mycchoriza, they provide them directly to the pant root zone. The nutrients shared with the plant are in the forms that you would normally find them in "chemical" fertilizer.

Organic fertilizer is not much more than compost: Balls of organic matter that need time to be broken down. By selecting organic matter with nigh levels if minerals (e.g., seeds which are condensed balls of nutrients), it provides more minerals / nutrients to the soil per gramme than compost would.

Manure is often too high in ammonia, certainly when it comes from poultry. This increases the amount of dissolved chemicals in the soil and reverse osmosis may occur when the concentration of salt in the root is lower than in the soil. The ammonia literally pulls the water out of the roots, very similar to to what happens when the soil dries out.

 

[leatherback]

but don't want to use chemical ferts because of kids, new puppy, other plants catching the runoff, etc.,

I do not see the reason for concern. There is nothing in there that is not in the soil already. it is just more concentrated. Be carefull with overdoing, because the roots can dry out if too much fertilizer is added and too litte water is available.

 

[JackHammer]

composting meat and fat etc attracts vermin, fly & scavengers if you want to compost these items bokashi them first then compost them and it does not smell or attract animals. There is a lot of wild claims with bokashi but the main benefit I find is the ability to compost item like you mentioned and the fact after the bokashi process it composts quicker. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokashi_(horticulture)

You do this yourself? I do regular fermenting but this is a new concept. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Lutonian]

You do this yourself? I do regular fermenting but this is a new concept. Thanks for sharing.

yes I have two bokashi bins I use in rotation our local council provide these at a discount as part of some sort of green scheme. All my food waste ends up as compost and the liquid run off from the bokashi can be used to acidify tap water too.

 

[ShadyStump]

Plants take up nutrients in their small, non-bound form.

For metals this is as their Ion, So.. Calcium needs to be in Ca++, Iron in Fe++ etc.

For non-metals such as Nitrogen and Phosphorous this normally is in an oxidized form but N can also be taken up as ammonia.

e.g. https://talkinghydroponics.com/2018/02/13/how-roots-absorb-nutrients/
View attachment 381302

Soil and Plant Nutrition - SlideServe

Soil and Plant Nutrition. Chapter 37. Nutritional Needs. Autotrophic does not mean autonomous plants need… sun as an energy source inorganic compounds as raw materials water (H 2 O) CO 2 minerals. Macronutrients. Plants require these nutrients in relatively large amounts

www.slideserve.com

View attachment 381303

The nice thing about "chemical" fertilizer is that the main nutrients used by the plant are provided in a form that the roots can absorp them without outside help.

Now we move to compost. Compost is rotted / fermented plant material. It is high in carbon, and nutrients are still mostly bound in organic molucules & organic complexes. A plant cannot directly take these nutrients. This is where the mycchoriza and bacteria come in. These are able to break down the organic components and live off that. They subsequently release the nutrients in simpler forms, and particularly with mycchoriza, they provide them directly to the pant root zone. The nutrients shared with the plant are in the forms that you would normally find them in "chemical" fertilizer.

Organic fertilizer is not much more than compost: Balls of organic matter that need time to be broken down. By selecting organic matter with nigh levels if minerals (e.g., seeds which are condensed balls of nutrients), it provides more minerals / nutrients to the soil per gramme than compost would.

Manure is often too high in ammonia, certainly when it comes from poultry. This increases the amount of dissolved chemicals in the soil and reverse osmosis may occur when the concentration of salt in the root is lower than in the soil. The ammonia literally pulls the water out of the roots, very similar to to what happens when the soil dries out.

THAT'S more what I was looking for!
Thank you!

I recall when I first started asking questions on BNut someone talking about cation exchange capacity in soil. I tried to read up on that, but it didn't make sense to me yet. Piece it in with what I've read so far of some of the info you and @Paradox have linked, and what I've been reading on soil physics, I'm beginning to see the trinary relationship that happens in soil/substrate.

I have some outdoors work to get done before it gets too hot, but it will be a good chance to process the data. I'll check back in later today.

 

[JackHammer]

yes I have two bokashi bins I use in rotation our local council provide these at a discount as part of some sort of green scheme. All my food waste ends up as compost and the liquid run off from the bokashi can be used to acidify tap water too.

Very cool!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

This catalogue is used for sales, but it has extensive parts about probably all nutrients that plants use, how they use them and why you'd want some, but not others.

http://brochure.duchefa-biochemie.com/Duchefa_catalogus_2010_2012/

 

[ShadyStump]

This catalogue is used for sales, but it has extensive parts about probably all nutrients that plants use, how they use them and why you'd want some, but not others.

http://brochure.duchefa-biochemie.com/Duchefa_catalogus_2010_2012/

That would be a decent place to start. Reading through some of the other stuff posted I'm piecing together a theory of how it all works together.
I'm hoping to one day work out a sort of general set of relationships between soil physics, nutrition chemistry and other factors. Think the fire triangle, but plant growth.

 

[leatherback]

I'm hoping to one day work out a sort of general set of relationships between soil physics, nutrition chemistry and other factors. Think the fire triangle, but plant growth.

Just keep in mind that there is a whole nody of academic work on this, as it is quite important in agriculture. And even there they are learning new stuff every day. How soils work is not a finished academic discussion

 

[ShadyStump]

Just keep in mind that there is a whole nody of academic work on this, as it is quite important in agriculture. And even there they are learning new stuff every day. How soils work is not a finished academic discussion

Oh, absolutely not.
I only meant a basic set of guidelines that would, for example, allow beginner to intermediate level hobbyists to quickly sort out their basic needs relative to their resources.

There's a huge amount of very specific advice here, but one is often left wondering how to adjust it for their own situation. There must be a way to condense the relationships between pot size, substrate composition, nutrient needs, etcetera, down to a few rough, vague rules to help know where to get started, as opposed to feeling the need to learn EVERYTHING all at once.

 

[Paradox]

Oh, absolutely not.
I only meant a basic set of guidelines that would, for example, allow beginner to intermediate level hobbyists to quickly sort out their basic needs relative to their resources.

There's a huge amount of very specific advice here, but one is often left wondering how to adjust it for their own situation. There must be a way to condense the relationships between pot size, substrate composition, nutrient needs, etcetera, down to a few rough, vague rules to help know where to get started, as opposed to feeling the need to learn EVERYTHING all at once.

I really think you are over complicating it.
It doesn't need to be complicated.

I mix a fish emulsion seaweed based fertilizer at 1/4 of a cup to 1 gallon of water and feed my trees with it every 2 weeks to a month. All my trees get the same stuff.

I'm now going to start feeding azalea with something more geared toward their acid loving nature.

In winter, I fertilize my tropicals inside with powdered Miracle grow because I don't want to use stinky fish emulsion in the house. I mix it at the amounts indicated on the package every week.

It works. The trees grow and are happy so I am happy.

There is no need for some complex mathematical formula based on pot size, percentage of pumice, lava and akadama, angle of the sun and average daily temperature.....

Just pick a fertilizer and use it.

 

[sorce]

I appreciate your wanting to learn details, but I think it's not worth the effort as well, but for my own reasons. I will give you something to ponder more worth your effort.

The 2 extremes I found my middle ground on are these.

Trees don't need fertilizer to grow.
Trees that are overfertilized are susceptible to problems.

So, in the context of Bonsai, not giving a "manure" is the best option.

But what is the context of bonsai?

What IS it?

Very specific goals at very specific times unlike any other potted life goals known to man.

So turning to anywhere outside Bonsai specific information, is a complete waste of time.

Trouble is, we, Bonsai people, are still debating best practices, that have only come to us from outside Bonsai specific information.

So you will not find "good" information on what IS worth your time anywhere but here in what we will discuss. At least not beyond "it depends" bullshit from folks who are ok with the average results following the "authoritative leader" who is also ok with average results.

In researching ash glazes, I found a list of the things of NPK and other necessary nutrients and elements found in greater concentration of different parts of wood.

I've shared it here, but recently deleted it from my phone.

What it showed was different concentrations of these things in trunks, bark, leaves, branches.

Seems to mirror our very specific goals perfectly, though the research we need to do, is wether or not to be increasing these things, or lessening them, in order to achieve our goals.

If you are building trunk, increase what is found most in trunks.
If you want small leaves, lessen what is found in most leaves.

I believe this is the research we need to do in order to find the best way to achieve our specific goals.

Sorce

 

[ShadyStump]

I really think you are over complicating it.
It doesn't need to be complicated.

I mix a fish emulsion seaweed based fertilizer at 1/4 of a cup to 1 gallon of water and feed my trees with it every 2 weeks to a month. All my trees get the same stuff.

I'm now going to start feeding azalea with something more geared toward their acid loving nature.

In winter, I fertilize my tropicals inside with powdered Miracle grow because I don't want to use stinky fish emulsion in the house. I mix it at the amounts indicated on the package every week.

It works. The trees grow and are happy so I am happy.

There is no need for some complex mathematical formula based on pot size, percentage of pumice, lava and akadama, angle of the sun and average daily temperature.....

Just pick a fertilizer and use it.

Not arguing.
Of course I'm over complicating it. It's my M.O.
Maybe I'm a scientist at heart. Isn't that how half the discoveries of the last thousand years were made? Someone asking unnecessarily overly complicated questions?
"Why?"
"Who cares? It works."
"But WHY?"
And isn't bonsai just about the most perfect balance of art and science ever developed so far?

Trouble is, we, Bonsai people, are still debating best practices, that have only come to us from outside Bonsai specific information.

Exactly.
Thank you for summing up my, "why," so succinctly.

 

[sorce]

. It's my M.O

Me too. That's why I want to get you interested in complicating this thing that actually needs complicating!

I think you're going to find the end of the original rabbit hole pretty fast, at least as far as what you end up doing for your trees regularly.

This new rabbit hole I'm trying to take us down, I think it will be more endless, and answer questions like, how do I build trunk safe and fast, how do I build branches safe and fast, how do I get extra small leaves, etc etc...

I guess I hope it to be a sniper accurate method of growing stock. Where every step is done independently, before settling into what a finished bonsai fert program is.

I still have a very large problem with the fact that we don't speak very particularly about what stage a bonsai is at. People talk about methods for finished trees whenever we should be talking about building trees, and parts of building trees programs get dropped into finished tree talk...

There just isn't enough distinction between the 2 in general already. So I don't expect us to instantly figure that out, which must kinda happen first. I just can't see it NOT making a lot of sense eventually. See you in the path to the future!

You know what else, it must have been this thread that make me think this earlier...

I like to complicate things because, yeah you did say it...

Isn't that how half the discoveries of the last thousand years were made?

Absolutely.

I like to complicate things because that's the only way to simplify things!

It just takes people like us to do the complicating part, cuz everyone else is...

folks who are ok with the average result

Lazy!

Sorce

 

[Paradox]

Not arguing.
Of course I'm over complicating it. It's my M.O.
Maybe I'm a scientist at heart. Isn't that how half the discoveries of the last thousand years were made? Someone asking unnecessarily overly complicated questions?
"Why?"
"Who cares? It works."
"But WHY?"
And isn't bonsai just about the most perfect balance of art and science ever developed so far?


Exactly.
Thank you for summing up my, "why," so succinctly.

Ok well my suggestion is to go to school get a phD in plant and/or soil science and research it because I don't think anyone here will be able to answer this question to your satisfaction.

BTW I am trained as a scientist. I have a masters degree in marine science. Sometimes we have to accept that a thing is the way it is based on observed results because trying to get to the why is beyond our ability either because of lack of technology or funding or both.

Fertilizing my trees works. I see the results in increased growth, health and vigor. I don't need to understand it on a microchemical level to know it works.

 

[Paradox]

I still have a very large problem with the fact that we don't speak very particularly about what stage a bonsai is at. People talk about methods for finished trees whenever we should be talking about building trees, and parts of building trees programs get dropped into finished tree talk...

There just isn't enough distinction between the 2 in general already. So I don't expect us to instantly figure that out, which must kinda happen first.

Sorce

The reason for this is that most experience and level of knowledge of most people on this forum is that of someone new to bonsai. Most new posts are new people just getting started and want to ask about their new nursery tree, stick in a pot. Most don't understand what to even look for when buying material let alone the difference between a tree in development and one that is highly developed.

They ask about doing techniques that the tree isn't really at the stage for, such as candle cutting a seedling JBP because they read somewhere that you cut candles on JBP.

And I disagree that we dont discuss what stage the tree is at. Those of us with a bit more experience are quick tell a new person that the tree needs to grow first, isn't at the point where those techniques make sense, etc.

Point is we have a larger percentage of people new to the hobby that are still trying to get their head around the basic questions and haven't gotten to the advanced ones. They need to get through the learning curve like every one else.