E. Red cedar

[Dragon60]

I know no one likes them... but, I like literati style trees and it seems that this species would fit. Has anyone tried it?

thanks

Not sure if the OP is still around but my Eastern Red Cedar fit the profile for literati so that's how I ended up styling it. More of a penjing I guess but that's what I really like. It took 4 years to develop and hopefully it can be maintained this way.Next spring I plan to put it in a smaller pot.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Not sure if the OP is still around but my Eastern Red Cedar fit the profile for literati so that's how I ended up styling it. More of a penjing I guess but that's what I really like. It took 4 years to develop and hopefully it can be maintained this way.View attachment 463491Next spring I plan to put it in a smaller pot.

Not bad at all. Maybe a bit fuller foliage, but the trunk line is nice.

 

[Dragon60]

Not bad at all. Maybe a bit fuller foliage, but the trunk line is nice.

Yes, that durn foliage is an issue. I'm hoping that keeping it trimmed back all the time might result in a more compact look eventually. The trunk line would have been much straighter if not for a hurricane breaking it after I originally collected it (but that was a good thing - I'm not complaining). And then a couple years ago my wiring caused the top few inches to die off but it grew back. It did have a rust attack which I treated with Daconil (and now treat twice a year). Have not had an attack since.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Yes, that durn foliage is an issue. I'm hoping that keeping it trimmed back all the time might result in a more compact look eventually. The trunk line would have been much straighter if not for a hurricane breaking it after I originally collected it (but that was a good thing - I'm not complaining). And then a couple years ago my wiring caused the top few inches to die off but it grew back. It did have a rust attack which I treated with Daconil (and now treat twice a year). Have not had an attack since.

It might benefit from letting it flush out with excess growth for a couple of years and then cut back to the desired silhouette. Sparse foliage means sparse food production which means less reserve strength. A bushy tree may be better than a sickly or dead tree.

 

[Dragon60]

It might benefit from letting it flush out with excess growth for a couple of years and then cut back to the desired silhouette. Sparse foliage means sparse food production which means less reserve strength. A bushy tree may be better than a sickly or dead tree.

Over the years I have let it grow out but it has never developed compact foilage and it liked to get leggy. As a literati it needs to have sparse foilage. It has several tips right now that if I trimmed it would look a little more compact and maybe a little pad-like but I purposely didn't trim because I don't want to kill it. It's actually in a growth phase at the moment so I'm going to let it grow a little over the next couple months, trim it back a little, grow more, trim a little, etc. and see how that goes. It doesn't back bud a lot but there is a new bud growing a couple inches up on the lowest left branch. I think it is currently healthy but if it seems to get worse I'll back off and leave it alone for a while.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Over the years I have let it grow out but it has never developed compact foilage and it liked to get leggy. As a literati it needs to have sparse foilage. It has several tips right now that if I trimmed it would look a little more compact and maybe a little pad-like but I purposely didn't trim because I don't want to kill it. It's actually in a growth phase at the moment so I'm going to let it grow a little over the next couple months, trim it back a little, grow more, trim a little, etc. and see how that goes. It doesn't back bud a lot but there is a new bud growing a couple inches up on the lowest left branch. I think it is currently healthy but if it seems to get worse I'll back off and leave it alone for a while.

I have good success with..........pinching. There, I said it! I don't pinch all of the growing tips, though. I just pinch the most vigorous shoots. Pinching the fast-growing tips stimulates the others and MAY even lead to a bit of back budding.

 

[Dragon60]

I have good success with..........pinching. There, I said it! I don't pinch all of the growing tips, though. I just pinch the most vigorous shoots. Pinching the fast-growing tips stimulates the others and MAY even lead to a bit of back budding.

Yes, this sounds like what I need to do on a regular basis. I will only pinch and see if that helps!

 

[vancehanna]

Juniperus virginiana, eastern red cedar, ERC for short. They get "dogged" by many more seasonsoned grower because they have "issues". There are thousands of them everywhere east of the Rocky Mountains. And thousands of bonsai hobby growers have tried their hand at training ERC. Despite thousands of attempts, there are only 5 or so "exhibition quality" ERC on the show circuit. The reason is that thousands of hobby bonsai growers eventually put their ERC on the burn pile. They are frustrating to work with. Now, it is true, that a small handful of artists successfully create bonsai with them. But these small number of successes is vastly outweighed by the huge number that end up on the burn pile.

It takes forever to get the foliage to form dense foliage pads. They are very prone to a fungal infection, cedar-apple rust and related cedar-quince rusts, and cedar-pear rusts. As many as 60% of the ERC will eventually succumb to the rust. Once the tree has the rust, it is difficult to get rid of. Mancozeb has some effectiveness, but the infection is systemic and persistent, difficult to get rid of.

All those reasons are part of why people end up composting their ERC.

But, if you find one with a nice attractive trunk, there is no reason to not try. It is a right of passage. Every new to bonsai in eastern North America ends up trying one or more. And most, but not all, will put them on the burn pile. Those that don't put them on the burn pile, often end up with a really nice specimen.

Do yourself a favor, at the same time you start with a ERC, get yourself an 'Itoigawa' or 'Kishu' shimpaku juniper. Raise them side by side. In 5 years, you will have a really nice shimpaku. And, you will see why you see so few ERC at North American bonsai shows.

The issues he is speaking about:
1) they are subject to a symbiotic relationship with Malus via

• Cedar-apple rust and related rust fungi need plants from two plant families to complete their life cycle; Cupressaceae family (eastern red cedar and other junipers) and Rosaceae (apple, hawthorn, serviceberry). (Orchardists in the Eastern US cut them furiously to 'remove' this problem)
• Bright orange to red leaf spots occur on apples, hawthorns, and other plants in the Rosaceae family.
• Hardy woody galls, witches brooms and swollen stems covered in gummy, orange, fungal growth in spring occur on juniper and eastern red cedar. (if you have this simply cut it out and treat with Ferbam or other anti-fungicide)
• These fungi rarely cause serious damage to their hosts and do not require management in most cases
• Treatment for such is simple: Ferbam and other anti fungicide spray solutions kill such.

They don't want to sport adult foliage until the tree is quite mature....a simple but 'honest' fact. Consequently most growers have immature foliage on their trees which is prickery etc. Another drawback is that the foliage turns a rusty brown during winter and it appears rather tattered when collected. (I usually fertilize the tree once it is established quite regularly).
However, once mature foliage is present with proper (normal) fertilizing it is a lovely medium green. Not a dark green that the Itoigawa and other "preferred" junipers have yet it is very lovely and honest in it's own right.


Yes they are not the preferred species for bonsai! Leo is right buy some high quality Itoigawa etc....burn the rest...

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

My neighbors all have flowering crab apples as yard and street trees, there is no getting away from the alternate hosts. But you are right, it can be managed.

Attached photos are from 15 years ago, on a bluff in LaRue Pine Hills unit of Shawnee National Forest. The tree is ERC that is estimated to be 800 years old, well overwrought university types say its 800, it is probably at least 400 or more. That's my nephew, I'm not that skinny, tall or agile. I'm hanging on to a tree further away from the cliff edge. Its about a 100 foot drop to the "bottoms", the confluence of the Big Muddy and Mississippi Rivers.

Notice the mature scale foliage, only 800 years to get scale foliage, LOL.

 

[Apex37]

Here’s one at the NC Arboretum from when we visited back in October.

 

[jimib]

Here’s another ERC from NC Arboretum, I took this 4 years ago I believe. If I recall, he said this was 12 years after collection.

 

[vancehanna]

My neighbors all have flowering crab apples as yard and street trees, there is no getting away from the alternate hosts. But you are right, it can be managed.

Attached photos are from 15 years ago, on a bluff in LaRue Pine Hills unit of Shawnee National Forest. The tree is ERC that is estimated to be 800 years old, well overwrought university types say its 800, it is probably at least 400 or more. That's my nephew, I'm not that skinny, tall or agile. I'm hanging on to a tree further away from the cliff edge. Its about a 100 foot drop to the "bottoms", the confluence of the Big Muddy and Mississippi Rivers.

Notice the mature scale foliage, only 800 years to get scale foliage, LOL.

View attachment 465665

View attachment 465666

View attachment 465667

Leo! Incredible find and when I lived in the Great Lake state, I’d see similar.
One of the old members of the Ann Arbor Bonsai society,

Here’s another ERC from NC Arboretum, I took this 4 years ago I believe. If I recall, he said this was 12 years after collection.

Rather rough but needing more compacted foliage tighter design. Nice trunk!

 

[vancehanna]

Here’s one at the NC Arboretum from when we visited back in October.

View attachment 465672

Quite a bit of potential! The tree needs the pads defined and leveled. It certainly can become a fine piece with better styling of the two main branches, one becoming the crown. Nice!

 

[vancehanna]

Nov 24...2023 She needs the bark cleaned from all the Ca,Mn,Na salts in the water.....but I thought the sunlight was amazing striking the side! Hope ya'all had a Thankful Thanksgiving....