Dwarf mugo pine with root rot need advice

[David wv]

I just got my first mugo pine a few days ago. I know you should repot in mid summer but I pulled the nursery pot off to try to remove the top layer of soil to try to see the trunk better. I found that the soil was soaking wet and a mucky mess. There is new roots growing but a lot of older roots that are mushy and completely rotted. The lower half of the pot was not filled with any roots and just fell apart, leaving new roots (white growing tips) exposed. I did pick away a small amount of soil from the root ball to try to remove the really broken down soil. I tried to sift all of the soaking wet soil through a 3/8'' screen to try use just the larger soil partials (mostly bark and pumice) so it would drain better, cut the pot down a few inches.
My question is, since I have disturbed the roots some, and the soil staying so wet, should I go ahead and repot. Or should I wait till mid summer like you are suppose to. The down side being, I would be disturbing the roots twice. I probably disturbed 10% of the root ball.
The tree has candles that are about an inch long right now. I am very new to pines, I only know what I have read on here and bonsai4me.

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

How about watering less? That should fix the wet soil.
Mugos are tough, I think you can get away with it but it's risky to repot at this point.
I do mine in spring by the way.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Get rid of root rot. Treat for rot, plant in pumice, Pumice will drain well so water as normal for dampness, not wetness.

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

I don’t dabble with pines, they’re not my jam, but it’s quite possible you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

I found myself in a similar situation recently and gambled on the side of saving roots from decaying slop. I’m still waiting to see if that was the right choice.

Whatever you choose, own it and accept the results. Then take notes for next time.

 

[Shibui]

If you leave it as is it probably won't make mid summer alive. Repot properly now. I only have one mugho but it has always been repotted in spring and is not dead yet.

 

[Cosmos]

How do you know there’s root rot? Did you send it to a lab? Is there a decomposition smell emanating from the roots?

More importantly, what does the foliage look like? Is the tree distressed? Do the candles look normal (1 inch seems like good extension)?

Sometimes, an ugly root system according to our standards doesn’t mean squat for the tree, they can thrive for years in a bad environment.

Another thing to note, you should confirm with Lord Mugo and other ppl from your area, but you might be a bit south for a true midsummer repot. Maybe a late summer/early fall repot would be gentler for you, but it’s 90F everyday in your area in July and August.

 

[Vance Wood]

I just got my first mugo pine a few days ago. I know you should repot in mid summer but I pulled the nursery pot off to try to remove the top layer of soil to try to see the trunk better. I found that the soil was soaking wet and a mucky mess. There is new roots growing but a lot of older roots that are mushy and completely rotted. The lower half of the pot was not filled with any roots and just fell apart, leaving new roots (white growing tips) exposed. I did pick away a small amount of soil from the root ball to try to remove the really broken down soil. I tried to sift all of the soaking wet soil through a 3/8'' screen to try use just the larger soil partials (mostly bark and pumice) so it would drain better, cut the pot down a few inches.
My question is, since I have disturbed the roots some, and the soil staying so wet, should I go ahead and repot. Or should I wait till mid summer like you are suppose to. The down side being, I would be disturbing the roots twice. I probably disturbed 10% of the root ball.
The tree has candles that are about an inch long right now. I am very new to pines, I only know what I have read on here and bonsai4me.

I would consider this an emergency repot. I would hose off the exiting roots to get rid of the creeping-crud the tree is growing in, cut out any roots that are mushy and black and repot the tree in a well draining soil mixlike pumice or coarse sand with a bit of composted pine bark mulch (my opinion and experience), say a prayer and move the tree where it wont be impacted by a lot of sun and you can control the water. Only water when it starts to go dry.

 

[David wv]

Thanks everybody for the advice, sounds like the repot now vote wins. I don't have any pumice or any local source for it. I normally use a soil mix that is about 40% sifted turface 40% sifted perlite and about 20% sifted pine bark mulch. Would that be okay for this tree?

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks everybody for the advice, sounds like the repot now vote wins. I don't have any pumice or any local source for it. I normally use a soil mix that is about 40% sifted turface 40% sifted perlite and about 20% sifted pine bark mulch. Would that be okay for this tree?

Soil mix OK. Don't expect miracles you still may loose the tree. Do what it is you have to do then leave the tree alone and give it time to respond. I had one take two growing seasons.

 

[David wv]

Soil mix OK. Don't expect miracles you still may loose the tree. Do what it is you have to do then leave the tree alone and give it time to respond. I had one take two growing seasons.

okay, thank you for your time. Should I pinch the candles on it or let it grow freely to regain vigor. The tree looks healthy up top, for now anyways. Sorry I am pretty clueless on mugos, or just on pines in general.

 

[Vance Wood]

okay, thank you for your time. Should I pinch the candles on it or let it grow freely to regain vigor. The tree looks healthy up top, for now anyways. Sorry I am pretty clueless on mugos, or just on pines in general.

If you get growth, and you might not but don't panic, just let it grow till July. Then let's talk about it.

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

In the future - if you have a nursery grown tree (especially conifers) that, in order to repot at the correct time of year, you must leave it growing in a water retentive mix that will effect root health, applying a wick (such as a long strand off a mop head) and pushing it several inches into the soil at the bottom of the pot through the drain holes and allowing what is left to dangle freely in the air. This will trick the excess water in the perched water table into seeking the bottom of the pot and continuing to drain out via the wick. If the roots are too congested to try this, you can get the same effect from burying the bottom 3 or 4 inches of the pot into the ground and let the earth act as a giant wick. This will get you by while you wait for the correct repotting time, without depriving the roots of oxygen and killing the tree in the meantime.

 

[Lazylightningny]

You might consider planting it in the ground for a season or two. The earth facilitates proper drainage and will suck all the excess moisture out of the root ball. I do this as an emergency method when the roots get like that.

 

[sorce]

How do you know there’s root rot? Did you send it to a lab? Is there a decomposition smell emanating from the roots?

More importantly, what does the foliage look like? Is the tree distressed? Do the candles look normal (1 inch seems like good extension)?

Sometimes, an ugly root system according to our standards doesn’t mean squat for the tree, they can thrive for years in a bad environment.

Another thing to note, you should confirm with Lord Mugo and other ppl from your area, but you might be a bit south for a true midsummer repot. Maybe a late summer/early fall repot would be gentler for you, but it’s 90F everyday in your area in July and August.

I don't think we should skip this important information.

I was thinking root rot was a stretch from the start.

Not that it matters in this one instance, but it can definitely lead to poor decisions without an understanding.

Sorce

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

I don't think we should skip this important information.

I was thinking root rot was a stretch from the start.

Not that it matters in this one instance, but it can definitely lead to poor decisions without an understanding.

Sorce

When there is a problem with a containerized tree growing in nursery soil it's usually pretty safe for the first assumption to be that it's the water retentive soil affecting the root health.

 

[sorce]

When there is a problem with a containerized tree growing in nursery soil it's usually pretty safe for the first assumption to be that it's the water retentive soil affecting the root health.

Sure!

But then we remember not to go off assumptions, less we kill a bunch of trees "emergency" repotting because we assumed wrong!

Sorce

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

When there is a problem with a containerized tree growing in nursery soil it's usually pretty safe for the first assumption to be that it's the water retentive soil affecting the root health.

I want to address that this issue is man made: we shouldn't water a nursery can the same way (or amount of times) as we would water a bonsai pot.
Root rot isn't caused by prolonged rain alone or soil type only, it's our personal lack of adapting to different soil types.

It seems an issue in the bonsai world only. Other people, and whole nurseries relying on healthy plants, growing plants in 'bad' soils don't report the soils as being bad.

Whenever I read or see 'bad soil' in a thread, it makes me wonder what's so bad about it.. It's not that the tree has lived its entirely life with issues due to that soil. It's us. It's our inability to waitin between waterings.
I'm a chronic over waterer in every soil. That makes me a bad caretaker. The soil is fine.
I have a mugo pine that was grown in a teacup of potting soil for 5 years. If potting soil was the issue, it would've died in 2015. It only started going downhill until I bought it.

I'm not pointing fingers, but it's food for thought.. If a gazillion nurseries show best practices, and we can't copy the effects, then the issue might be us.

 

[Vance Wood]

I want to address that this issue is man made: we shouldn't water a nursery can the same way (or amount of times) as we would water a bonsai pot.
Root rot isn't caused by prolonged rain alone or soil type only, it's our personal lack of adapting to different soil types.

It seems an issue in the bonsai world only. Other people, and whole nurseries relying on healthy plants, growing plants in 'bad' soils don't report the soils as being bad.

Whenever I read or see 'bad soil' in a thread, it makes me wonder what's so bad about it.. It's not that the tree has lived its entirely life with issues due to that soil. It's us. It's our inability to waitin between waterings.
I'm a chronic over waterer in every soil. That makes me a bad caretaker. The soil is fine.
I have a mugo pine that was grown in a teacup of potting soil for 5 years. If potting soil was the issue, it would've died in 2015. It only started going downhill until I bought it.

I'm not pointing fingers, but it's food for thought.. If a gazillion nurseries show best practices, and we can't copy the effects, then the issue might be us.

That is the truth of most problems in bonsai; Us!

 

[River's Edge]

I want to address that this issue is man made: we shouldn't water a nursery can the same way (or amount of times) as we would water a bonsai pot.
Root rot isn't caused by prolonged rain alone or soil type only, it's our personal lack of adapting to different soil types.

It seems an issue in the bonsai world only. Other people, and whole nurseries relying on healthy plants, growing plants in 'bad' soils don't report the soils as being bad.

Whenever I read or see 'bad soil' in a thread, it makes me wonder what's so bad about it.. It's not that the tree has lived its entirely life with issues due to that soil. It's us. It's our inability to waitin between waterings.
I'm a chronic over waterer in every soil. That makes me a bad caretaker. The soil is fine.
I have a mugo pine that was grown in a teacup of potting soil for 5 years. If potting soil was the issue, it would've died in 2015. It only started going downhill until I bought it.

I'm not pointing fingers, but it's food for thought.. If a gazillion nurseries show best practices, and we can't copy the effects, then the issue might be us.

Not to argue with the points you made, but there is another major consideration, and that is the shape and depth of Bonsai pots versus regular nursery pots. They drain differently and retain different level of moisture due to those varying characteristics. Now add that to sensible watering habits based on the media used and we have multiple factors to create issues when comparing nursery practices to bonsai practices.
The key is to understand the variables one is using and adapt ones practices for success with the chosen variables.
One also needs to understand that the chosen variables can affect the growth characteristics of the root system.