Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

0soyoung said:
He said pretty much everything that needed to be said several days ago, here, on BNut - use the search feature.
Click to expand...

My point is that Walter has attributed to him much that I did not infer from reading what he has previously posted. I was hoping he might comment. He surely has no obligation to do so but then one could reasonably assume that Walter's interpretations are correct.
 
Thanks very much for this thread...

While I would normally agree with what you have written, I do have to bring up the following "sticking" points of your post that I see relevant in regards to the "real world" perception of Art.

I am an Artist, have been my whole life... I am the son of an Architect, who had his own firm, which for me and my family doubled as a day care center when really young and an after school hangout when older... I have since done just about every type of art imaginable. From painting, drawing/drafting, photography, I worked for years in the Film Industry, designing sets, props, vehicles, etc. I have written scripts, run cameras, done lighting, directed, and even done animation. And the list goes on. I have displayed art in galleries, endured endless critiques of films I have worked on, and have spent many many years as a businessman as well trying to not only sell my own art, but also learn how to package, licence and promote, etc. Then there is the Art of my Bonsai.

Now, I say this not to try and brag or say how good I am... quite the contrary... I bring this up to merely state that along this journey I have learned a thing or two about Art and the Role of Public Perception which is for the most part I feel what this thread is all about.

You and I both know that you can get a group of Artist to convince themselves that anything they do is really Art. So, should it really come to any surprise that Duchamp ' s Urinal would have been considered groundbreaking and revolutionary, to a group of Artist? I post this not as an insult to you, or your words, or to the individual whose tree and choice of display has been made the topic. Instead, since the subject and discussion have been brought up, I think it would be the perfect time then to dwell into the role of Art, why it is conceived, the role the Artist plays and the role the Public/Observer plays seeing that they go hand in hand... in hopes that we can come to terms with the question of what "Art" itself, is...

For myself, and I am sure this is true for a lot of folks... they have a problem with an Artist just claiming anything they do as Art. And feel that a claim such as this just does not actually make it so.
Why? Because, they let's say the "Public", for sake of this discussion, have preconceived notions of what Art is... they bring their own life experiences and sometimes prejudices, as well as understandings based upon centuries of art that have come before, to the table when viewing a piece of art... right or wrong, this is how one understands, comes to terms with, and even judges that what they are seeing and witnessing is Art... and if the Art is good or bad.

Now, there are ways one can jump some of these preconceived notions and hurdles, so I do think it can be done and quite successful, but it is a very big leap nonetheless... I will touch more on this a little latter.

Let me take a step back for a minute.... and examine why does an Artist create a piece of Art in the first place? The most logical answer I can come to terms with is that of... it is a way to express oneself. To show others/the outside world, how they view life, and their emotions, feelings, views of what they perceive as life... however normal or strange this perception might be. So, this is the role of the Artist... to create and show the outside world... however many or few people this might be.

So, there is a direct correlation between the two. Unless an Artist only seeks to make Art for their eyes only... one must also take into consideration the role the "Public" and their perception, plays in any Art they do. Now with that said, perhaps the Artist does not care to much for this public perception, and only chooses to please the few... fine, as long as they understand the previous preconceptions mention before that the Public hold, and realize a lot of folks are not going to get it, and should not expect them too.

So then the question is how does one jump the hurdles of the Public's preconceived views, and at the sane time present a piece of Art that allows them to put aside all they have ever learned, seen, understand and come to terms with as being Art? The best answer I can give is through baby steps... this is not to try and insult the Public's views, but more to try and explain... If one is to try and bring the Public out of their conform zone... either the Art must be based partially on their notions, with a few new notions thrown in... or, one needs to throw all of their notions out of the window, and create a whole new world with it's own set of rules entirely different. Yet at the same time these rules must be thorough and well thought out and not a "just because I said so", scenario, at the same time one needs to try and find a common thread, or parallel thread to the Public's preconception... so that they might be able to come v to terms with the Art...
WHEW!!! Quite a hurdle....

It can be done however... I will give you an example. I think the Cup did this with the lighting that was so controversial... folks have not necessarily seen this being done in bonsai, even though it has been done before... yet, everyone has been to an Art Museum, which this was at, and has seen installations with ambient lighting being shown on the subject of display. .. so, this works, and I will go as far as to say, will be what long term is remembered about the event.

One needs to find this connection... nine times out of ten where the Artist fails, is with not understanding the Public's preconception, it's consideration and what role it plays, outright refusal to believe it plays a role... or, as mentioned before, because the Artist's view is not cohesive and not thought out and thorough. Instead it falls into the "because I said so", category.

I know this is lengthy, but I want to touch on one more subject... that being "Avant-garde" Art.... which is what the Urinal and the Potted Vacuum Cleaner really are. With this type of art, it is less about the art and more about the message. Usually this type of art is nonconforming, with the main intention being so... So, the Artist is deliberately trying to fly in the face of the Public's preconception. Right of the bat, this is going to face problems... because it is telling the Public that the Artist does not care what the Public thinks of it. It's all about the artist... see for me this is fine, but where I think it is going to always fail on a whole, is that it isn't really about the Art, but more the Public's preconception. So, it is a statement... the problem with statements, is they often fall into the gimmicky, see what I can do type of scenario. Where I see them being successful, is one can make a statement, however no one knows they have... so sometimes you have to be creative, and a bit more subtle. Wanted to edit, and say I am in no way here addressing my comments or views at the art in discussion, merely the concept of this tye of art. Does the art in question succeed or fail, I will let you judge.

Sorry for any type o's and errors, posting from my phone!
 
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it is a way to express oneself.

here is the threshold....

labeling self-expression steps beyond that threshold, to public preconception.
Labels are pretty lame, why pigeonhole?


getting paid for self expression is another beast entirely...cuz' that would be nice to!!
 
E="ColinFraser, post: 292070, member: 18548"]Insightful and thought provoking (as usual).
Vielen Dank für Ihren Kommentar.[/QUOTE]
There's only 1 of Herr Pall
 
LanceMac10 said:
it is a way to express oneself.

here is the threshold....

labeling self-expression steps beyond that threshold, to public preconception.
Labels are pretty lame, why pigeonhole?


getting paid for self expression is another beast entirely...cuz' that would be nice to!!
Click to expand...
I would normally agree with you... but let's face it, everything has labels! I grew up listening to punk rock and metal music, which for me in that time and place was as non conforming as one could get.. yet our music was labeled punk and metal. So, in essence our non conformity, was actually conforming to not conform.

We were taking the rules of the establishment, and doing the opposite! Thus is the same often with "Avant-garde" type art... it is still based upon the rules of the establishment, however here they are often choosing to do the complete opposite. Conforming to not conform.

The funny part about "Avant-garde" Art is that is still must be judge right or wrong on the basic principles of the establishment, right? If one takes the subject of the tree in question in the vacuum cleaner... a Judge scoring the tree, would still look for the basic "established" fundamentals of Bonsai... does the tree have good ramification, does it have wire scars, how is the foliage, the design the concept, the pot, which in this instance is the vacuum cleaner, or is it the stand?, etc... does that display work, is it cohesive, does it follow through?
 
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One PhD psychologist who spent some of his career researching the issue made the following observation, "There is no useful definition of art." It is hard to argue with that, as this thread demonstrates. Yet art is something most of us inherently treasure. So, to my way of thinking, one must start with the notion that art is in the eye of the beholder. As Sawgrass pointed out, that can evolve. Artists can bring people along by baby steps. Can any of us who have been doing bonsai for a while say our appreciation has not evolved over the years? Walter is basically saying the same thing.

In this county, unlike Japan, the vast majority of bonsai practitioners are hobbyists. Their appreciation is at a different stage than most professionals, and the general public is in a different place still. None of these are "correct" to the exclusion of the others. Why can't we find ways to celebrate all levels of appreciation?
 
(Walter) Thank you for posting this on the forum! When I read it on Facebook I was
going to ask you if I could post it here. Not because I agree or disagree with those who
think only “traditional” bonsai is “real” bonsai but because we as Viewers have no say
in the matter. I tried to convey this in some of the other threads that came about in
response to the Artisan’s Cup but couldn’t seem to find the right words.

As far as David Crust commenting on this thread; he may or may not. However, sometimes
what is not spoken, speaks volumes. So I ask, prior to the Cup, did David post his 'Larch
planted in a Kirby' even one time and ask “What do you think”?
 
sawgrass said:
Thanks very much for this thread...

While I would normally agree with what you have written, I do have to bring up the following "sticking" points of your post that I see relevant in regards to the "real world" perception of Art.

I am an Artist, have been my whole life... I am the son of an Architect, who had his own firm, which for me and my family doubled as a day care center when really young and an after school hangout when older... I have since done just about every type of art imaginable. From painting, drawing/drafting, photography, I worked for years in the Film Industry, designing sets, props, vehicles, etc. I have written scripts, run cameras, done lighting, directed, and even done animation. And the list goes on. I have displayed art in galleries, endured endless critiques of films I have worked on, and have spent many many years as a businessman as well trying to not only sell my own art, but also learn how to package, licence and promote, etc. Then there is the Art of my Bonsai.

Now, I say this not to try and brag or say how good I am... quite the contrary... I bring this up to merely state that along this journey I have learned a thing or two about Art and the Role of Public Perception which is for the most part I feel what this thread is all about.

You and I both know that you can get a group of Artist to convince themselves that anything they do is really Art. So, should it really come to any surprise that Duchamp ' s Urinal would have been considered groundbreaking and revolutionary, to a group of Artist? I post this not as an insult to you, or your words, or to the individual whose tree and choice of display has been made the topic. Instead, since the subject and discussion have been brought up, I think it would be the perfect time then to dwell into the role of Art, why it is conceived, the role the Artist plays and the role the Public/Observer plays seeing that they go hand in hand... in hopes that we can come to terms with the question of what "Art" itself, is...

For myself, and I am sure this is true for a lot of folks... they have a problem with an Artist just claiming anything they do as Art. And feel that a claim such as this just does not actually make it so.
Why? Because, they let's say the "Public", for sake of this discussion, have preconceived notions of what Art is... they bring their own life experiences and sometimes prejudices, as well as understandings based upon centuries of art that have come before, to the table when viewing a piece of art... right or wrong, this is how one understands, comes to terms with, and even judges that what they are seeing and witnessing is Art... and if the Art is good or bad.

Now, there are ways one can jump some of these preconceived notions and hurdles, so I do think it can be done and quite successful, but it is a very big leap nonetheless... I will touch more on this a little latter.

Let me take a step back for a minute.... and examine why does an Artist create a piece of Art in the first place? The most logical answer I can come to terms with is that of... it is a way to express oneself. To show others/the outside world, how they view life, and their emotions, feelings, views of what they perceive as life... however normal or strange this perception might be. So, this is the role of the Artist... to create and show the outside world... however many or few people this might be.

So, there is a direct correlation between the two. Unless an Artist only seeks to make Art for their eyes only... one must also take into consideration the role the "Public" and their perception, plays in any Art they do. Now with that said, perhaps the Artist does not care to much for this public perception, and only chooses to please the few... fine, as long as they understand the previous preconceptions mention before that the Public hold, and realize a lot of folks are not going to get it, and should not expect them too.

So then the question is how does one jump the hurdles of the Public's preconceived views, and at the sane time present a piece of Art that allows them to put aside all they have ever learned, seen, understand and come to terms with as being Art? The best answer I can give is through baby steps... this is not to try and insult the Public's views, but more to try and explain... If one is to try and bring the Public out of their conform zone... either the Art must be based partially on their notions, with a few new notions thrown in... or, one needs to throw all of their notions out of the window, and create a whole new world with it's own set of rules entirely different. Yet at the same time these rules must be thorough and well thought out and not a "just because I said so", scenario, at the same time one needs to try and find a common thread, or parallel thread to the Public's preconception... so that they might be able to come v to terms with the Art...
WHEW!!! Quite a hurdle....

It can be done however... I will give you an example. I think the Cup did this with the lighting that was so controversial... folks have not necessarily seen this being done in bonsai, even though it has been done before... yet, everyone has been to an Art Museum, which this was at, and has seen installations with ambient lighting being shown on the subject of display. .. so, this works, and I will go as far as to say, will be what long term is remembered about the event.

One needs to find this connection... nine times out of ten where the Artist fails, is with not understanding the Public's preconception, it's consideration and what role it plays, outright refusal to believe it plays a role... or, as mentioned before, because the Artist's view is not cohesive and not thought out and thorough. Instead it falls into the "because I said so", category.

I know this is lengthy, but I want to touch on one more subject... that being "Avant-garde" Art.... which is what the Urinal and the Potted Vacuum Cleaner really are. With this type of art, it is less about the art and more about the message. Usually this type of art is nonconforming, with the main intention being so... So, the Artist is deliberately trying to fly in the face of the Public's preconception. Right of the bat, this is going to face problems... because it is telling the Public that the Artist does not care what the Public thinks of it. It's all about the artist... see for me this is fine, but where I think it is going to always fail on a whole, is that it isn't really about the Art, but more the Public's preconception. So, it is a statement... the problem with statements, is they often fall into the gimmicky, see what I can do type of scenario. Where I see them being successful, is one can make a statement, however no one knows they have... so sometimes you have to be creative, and a bit more subtle. Wanted to edit, and say I am in no way here addressing my comments or views at the art in discussion, merely the concept of this tye of art. Does the art in question succeed or fail, I will let you judge.

Sorry for any type o's and errors, posting from my phone!
Click to expand...
Stacy--Very arty counter-blurb--nice. I surely don't have much experienced on the machination in the art world but wanted to respond to your comments on "Avant-garde" Art. The Hoover tree was truly a non-statement statement--it just happened. The appliance was found reclining elegantly among other refuse in a rock pile in a neighbors field--it instantly seemed the perfect thing to plant into a composition--so I did, and with the perfect little tree. It has always been a delight and I have watered and cared for it for many years. I enjoy it immensely. I always enjoy seeing its line. I always enjoy the interest and proportion of it. I never ever was trying to make anything but something that worked. I never had a preconceived "statement" in mind. I never figured anyone would really see it, other than a few relatives and a few bonsai dorks. I am glad it was accepted in the Cup though. Here is a a favorite quote from Duchamp: "
In 1958 Duchamp said of creativity,
"The creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act".
 
Vin said:
(Walter) Thank you for posting this on the forum! When I read it on Facebook I was
going to ask you if I could post it here. Not because I agree or disagree with those who
think only “traditional” bonsai is “real” bonsai but because we as Viewers have no say
in the matter. I tried to convey this in some of the other threads that came about in
response to the Artisan’s Cup but couldn’t seem to find the right words.

As far as David Crust commenting on this thread; he may or may not. However, sometimes
what is not spoken, speaks volumes. So I ask, prior to the Cup, did David post his 'Larch
planted in a Kirby' even one time and ask “What do you think”?
Click to expand...
In the spirit of inanity I guess I can comment not on "what do you think" but rather present my poem on "what is good".

After dinner I had this pie

And thought I would surely die

The crust so tender it made me tremble

Into its contents I did dismember

A custard smooth as lady flesh

To be only tongued and ne’er expressed
 
crust said:
In the spirit of inanity I guess I can comment not on "what do you think" but rather present my poem on "what is good".

After dinner I had this pie

And thought I would surely die

The crust so tender it made me tremble

Into its contents I did dismember

A custard smooth as lady flesh

To be only tongued and ne’er expressed
Click to expand...
I feel like I need to take a shower and brush my teeth ;)
 
crust said:
Stacy--Very arty counter-blurb--nice. I surely don't have much experienced on the machination in the art world but wanted to respond to your comments on "Avant-garde" Art. The Hoover tree was truly a non-statement statement--it just happened. The appliance was found reclining elegantly among other refuse in a rock pile in a neighbors field--it instantly seemed the perfect thing to plant into a composition--so I did, and with the perfect little tree. It has always been a delight and I have watered and cared for it for many years. I enjoy it immensely. I always enjoy seeing its line. I always enjoy the interest and proportion of it. I never ever was trying to make anything but something that worked. I never had a preconceived "statement" in mind. I never figured anyone would really see it, other than a few relatives and a few bonsai dorks. I am glad it was accepted in the Cup though. Here is a a favorite quote from Duchamp: "
In 1958 Duchamp said of creativity,
"The creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act".
Click to expand...
Cool, even better!
I obviously meant no insult regarding your tree and it's installation. I was merely running with the concept of the thread. And hopefully helped to continue the discussion. I think the more we talk the more we all learn.

If I might suggest one change, in the form of an arty counter blurb... that to tie your concept of the tree and the vacuum cleaner together more and to complete the story of why the two are together, since I believe this is going to be the sticking point for a lot of folks... it would be the following, that perhaps instead of an accent plant, one lays out cuttings and trimmings on the table from the tree as if the tree has just been styled... and the cuttings and trimmings have dropped on the table so to speak, one could even path them over to the front of the Vacuum cleaner...

This concept as simple as it may be, would instantly give the viewer the reasoning that the Vacuum Cleaner is there to clean up the mess. Completing the story. One could even lay down some scissors and tools, that might have been used to do the imagined styling.

As I said in my previous comments, if you can somehow make the leap for people they will get it... everyone has had to clean up cuttings after styling, so this is a common knowledge that everyone would understand. Obviously one does not have to do this, it is merely a suggestion of what could be done.
 
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sawgrass said:
This concept as simple as it may be, would instantly give the viewer the reasoning that the Vacuum Cleaner is there to clean up the mess. Completing the story. One could even lay down some scissors and tools, that might have been used to do the styling.
Click to expand...
How about a 'cow pie'/'meadow muffin'?
Maybe even a few blades of grass growing from it?
It hints of another piece of Crust's story.

I kinda like it :cool: - seriously.
American kusamono.

This thing is just so damn much fun!

... resume your serious discussion ...
 
Last edited:
Djtommy said:
I think the other display is more bonsai art. This one is art using bonsai.
Click to expand...

I wasn't at the AC, and while it looked like a really great show, I think this sums up my problem with the vacuum-cleaner tree. No offense to Crust of course, but the tree is ok, nothing spectacular or anything. I just don't see how this fits into the whole exhibition - and in particular, how it relates to the AC's slogan of displaying bonsai of the highest quality or "American Bonsai."

It seems the show was slanted towards collected conifers most of which have been in training for less than 10 years - were there really no other broadleaf tree submissions with branching 10-20+ years in the making that couldn't be part of the show in lieu of this? Part of the artistry in bonsai, particularly with deciduous trees, is the patient, methodical building of branches and nebari over many years, the healing of scars from chops, etc. - things much less critical for collected conifers. To me, that shows more artistry.

I assume the vacuum-cleaner tree was selected for its shock value. But, if this ends up being the most talked about tree of the exhibition, doesn't this cut against what the AC was supposed to be about?
 
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