AaronThomas
Omono
Here are a few new pics of the tree… I have soil Granite and Sandler over… I think I'll remix what I have in a different ratio.
Dropping leaves and pushing new growth
- Thread starter AaronThomas
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Here are a few new pics of the tree… I have soil Granite and Sandler over… I think I'll remix what I have in a different ratio.
AaronThomas
Omono
I actually have cut back quite a bit of the groth to three nodes... And the leaves definitely don't get that large on this particular tree . However I do agree with you there's something clearly wrong going to pull it out now… Will post pics soon.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Strong growth = big leaves. Weak growth = little leaves. The leaves have always been small because the tree has always been weak. Soil is not optimal and it's not been allowed to grow because the growing tips are constantly being removed.
I don't know about repotting a weak tree out of season. Seems like you're taking a bit of a chance repotting it now. I'm not sure that it's that much of an emergency that you'd want to take the risk. I'd probably advise leaving it alone. Stop pruning the new growth and let it grow. Be very careful with the watering and repot it next season. Before you take the advice about soil mixtures other club members, have a hard look at their trees. Take the advice of the ones that have really healthy growth as in the picture I posted.
In general, for stronger growth, use a coarser substrate and stay away from really fine stuff like potting soil. Or at least keep it less than 10% of your mixture. If you feel as though you have to have organics use composted bark instead. With a coarser substrate, you'll be able to water and fertilize much more often. That pulls it fresh air and oxygen into the soil and keeps the roots healthy. And it will be much easier on you because figuring out if your tree needs water will be far less of a science project - you'll just water a lot. If you have to be away during the day, just pick up a reliable timer that you can hook up to your faucet while you're at work. And put some sphagnum moss on top of the soil. And keep the pot shaded during the hottest part of the day.
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AaronThomas
Omono
Boy oh boy what to do… If it is root rot I'm assuming that it will just spread And things could get worse ?
AaronThomas
Omono
I may have just uncovered the problem… I wrapped a portion of the roots below the rock with some electrical tape… I pulled some the soil away and saw that there was no dirt behind the electrical tape and voids with air . Trying to remove the tape without digging up the tree I think will be impossible .
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
A high organic content often means excess moisture in the soil. Excess moisture means poor aeration which inhibits root growth. High moisture + a large organic content will eventually lead to soil collapse as the organics break down, worsening the aeration problem. Moist, low oxygen conditions promote phytophthora and other pathogens in the soil - they're what cause root rot and they grow really well in warm temperatures in shallow containers rich in damp potting soil. Especially potting soil that's more than a couple of seasons old.
Because of all this, the best solution in dry conditions is just to water more often and not add a bunch of stuff to the pot to keep it damp. That will lead to problems like this down the line.
So what to do now? Well it's a question that all of us have had to face at one point or another. I don't think that your tree is at the "emergency" stage yet, but I would expect continued weak growth throughout the summer. Here's what I would do:
- I would clean the top soil as I described in this post to try and get rid as much of the poor soil as possible while minimizing the distrubance of the roots. I believe that you'll see your tree perk up a bit and maybe stop losing leaves when you do this. Then you'll know that this is the problem.
- I would stop clipping the new growth. Do not prune anything this year. Clipping off the growing tips will force the tree to activate new buds which will further weaken the tree.
- I would be VERY careful with watering and fertilization. By the end of a year of constant checking and second-guessing yourself, I think you'll start to understand a key benefit of a modern, granular substrate - it completely removes the watering guessing game.
- I would re-evaluate the trees condition in the late summer. I'm guessing that you have a summer dormancy - and a bit of a growth spurt in the fall when things start to cool down. When the tree starts to grow again in fall might be your next best window to repot if it's condition has significantly deteriorated.
- If things are more-or-less the same, I'd wait until next January and repot. I'd bare-root the tree and remove ALL of the existing soil and repot in a better substrate.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Electrical tape is not a good soil component. While carrying out what I suggested in point (1) above, try and remove as much of that as possible too.
AaronThomas
Omono
I'm on it !
AaronThomas
Omono
Well that didn't go as smooth as late as I hoped… There was an unbelievable amount of root growth since January. I had to pull the tree in order to get the electrical tape off without damaging the roots… I'm hoping disturbing the roots this late in the season is not going to be an issue… Keeping my fingers crossed . The good news is no root rot!I changed up the soil to 30% organics ( I know you are probably think it's still too much ) 60% decomposed granite and 10% sand . LOL it definitely looks better.
I guess all I can do now is wait… I'll keep the tree out of direct sunlight for a few weeks and see what happens .
Thank you Marky and everyone else!
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
In the future....... sift the components and throw away everything that passes thru an 1/8 inch screen. This soil is too fine and can possibly turn anerobic which can lead to rot. Coarse sand means 1/8 inch or larger not all the fines too.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
That's good.
That's bad.
Sometimes it's really hard to tell by visual inspection unless it's really far gone. Here's an example of root rot from phytophthora.
I don't use any organics, but I won't tell you what to do. I'm not watering your plants everyday! But if by "organics" you mean potting soil, then yes, I think that's 30% too much. Potting soil is too fine-grained. When you do what Smoke suggested, you'll sift out the whole bag. But if by "organics" you mean sifted pine bark, you're probably OK.
If by "decomposed granite", you mean box store, right out of the bag, unsieved decomposed granite and if by "sand", you mean playbox sand, then I think it's still way too fine grained. If by "sand" you mean aquarium gravel, haydite, or something similar in size, and you sieved the decomposed granite, you're probably in good shape.
But my guess is that you used potting soil, unsieved decomposed granite, and playbox sand. If that's true, you won't have improved aeration much at all except to remove the old, compacted, potting soil. Potting soil is not bad because it's organic, it's bad because it's extremely fine grained so it's too water retentive. That, combined with all the inorganic fines you've thrown in there has likely led to all of the problems you've been having with the tree. So don't do anything else for now, but I stand by points 2-5 of my previous advice.
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jeremy_norbury
Omono
How can you not tell this? Are leaves missing form the ends of the branches or not?
What you are seeing is almost certainly normal behaviour for a Chinese elm at this time of year.
Here's one of mine doing exactly the same thing today.
04035543 by Jerry Norbury, on Flickr
AaronThomas
Omono
@markyscott and @Smoke
The organic soil I used was made up of mostly pine back... and yes, it was unsifted.
I did sift the DG with a 1/16 screen and wash.... I would say the average size is approximately 3/16
The course sand I use is a pool filter silica sand which I wash to remove dust.... It's much larger then play sand.
Yes, It still retains water.... Ill have to see what happens with this tree.
My other trees are doing very well with tons of new growth and not dropping any leaves.... so maybe this tree is sick or ?
@jeremy_norbury
I hope its normal for an elm and there is nothing else wrong with it... however I don't recall in the past 5 years it ever dropping its leaves in spring.
I'm hoping I didn't kill the tree by replanting it.... I hope the fact that its an elm is in my favor and it has the strength to bounce back like @M. Frary tree did.
I now know the soil isn't ideal for bonsai... but I'm hoping its better then it was.... As it is, its much less dense.
Next spring I will take Marky's advice and change up the soil components when I re-pot.
The organic soil I used was made up of mostly pine back... and yes, it was unsifted.
I did sift the DG with a 1/16 screen and wash.... I would say the average size is approximately 3/16
The course sand I use is a pool filter silica sand which I wash to remove dust.... It's much larger then play sand.
Yes, It still retains water.... Ill have to see what happens with this tree.
My other trees are doing very well with tons of new growth and not dropping any leaves.... so maybe this tree is sick or ?
@jeremy_norbury
There are leaves missing from everywhere. Jeremy our spring in the desert started in late January.... a majority of the new growth at this point has hardened off. What I meant by "I can't tell if its new growth or not"... I meant the buds that are now coming out. My tree looks nothing like yours. It appears your leaves are turning a shade of green or brown then dropping.... Mine was loosing deep green waxy leaves.
I hope its normal for an elm and there is nothing else wrong with it... however I don't recall in the past 5 years it ever dropping its leaves in spring.
I'm hoping I didn't kill the tree by replanting it.... I hope the fact that its an elm is in my favor and it has the strength to bounce back like @M. Frary tree did.
I now know the soil isn't ideal for bonsai... but I'm hoping its better then it was.... As it is, its much less dense.
Next spring I will take Marky's advice and change up the soil components when I re-pot.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Elms are strong. It might be OK. Let us know how it goes over the summer.
AaronThomas
Omono
Marky can't thank you enough! And I will for sure.
AaronThomas
Omono
Not to beat a dead horse.... (but I will) Should I expect to see more leaves drop or shrivel up due the shock of replanting?
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Hopefully nothing will happen and the tree will keep on keeping on. If it doesn't handle the tansplant well, the leaves will turn yellow and fall off. If the shock is bad enough you can lose most or all of the leaves. But if the tree survives the shock it will bud out again after a few weeks.
But hopefully nothing like that will happen. The tree is weak - you don't want it to defoliate itself and then have to grow a new canopy. That's tough on a strong tree.
AaronThomas
Omono
That's what I'm talking about! Keeping fingers crossed.... Until next time!
jeremy_norbury
Omono
If you're worried about the soil change it NOW. You can repot a Chinese elm at any time of year they are that vigorous.
AaronThomas
Omono
Re-potted in much better soil... hopefully resting comfortably in the shade for the next few weeks.
Curious as to what you use for your elms... I know we are in totally different locations.
Thanks Jeremy.
