Drastically different soil component sizes?

[leatherback]

Yes, I am one of those who sifts through the three sizes sieves and keep large/medium/small particles in different containers.

I normally also sift. But if I have collected a plant "unexpectedly" I might just gather what I have, often also, leftovers from repottings going on, and use that to get the plant settled in. Like the carpinus showed.

 

[Mikecheck123]

I have a linden planted in particles between about 1 mm and 16mm. It grew insane since last november when it was collected. In the long term it might matter, but in the short term, I don't think it does. All my trees are planted in different particle sizes and they don't seem to mind at all.

They also wouldn't mind being in potting soil. But there are good reasons we don't use it.

 

[Vali]

They also wouldn't mind being in potting soil. But there are good reasons we don't use it.

Are you comparing the substrate I use with potting soil? I'm not the only one doing this. Harry Harrington and Sebastijan Sandev are only 2 of the bonsai professionals who use different size particles and they have amazing trees.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Are you comparing the substrate I use with potting soil? I'm not the only one doing this. Harry Harrington and Sebastijan Sandev are only 2 of the bonsai professionals who use different size particles and they have amazing trees.

My point is that a plant "not minding" something is a weak argument for everyone to do it.

And after ten seconds of research, it looks like Harry advocates 3 basically non-overlapping size ranges.

These three images compare the three different mixes I currently use for all of my trees and bonsai; 1) shows my collecting mix, as described in this article, with 7-15mm pumice grains. 2) Shows my medium grain mix (2-7mm pumice grains) for coniferous species and also as a topping for newly collected trees. 3) My mix for my healthy, refined deciduous bonsai contains small grains to encourage finer growth and ramification. It contains molar (sold as cat-litter), pumice and chopped bark with a grain size of 1-3mm. I then use a surface dressing of Akadama, primarily for its natural appearance.

I guess we can quibble about what it means for particles to be the "same" size. But his approach seems very different from mixing 1 mm particles with 16 mm particles.

 

[YAN]

You will have a wetter soil with mixed particle sizes and have stratification issues on the long run witch means more water saturated zone on the bottom coz of small particles (even if drainage layer used) and fast drying upper zone coz of large particles.

I suggest you read introductory soil physics by markyscott, very helpful.

 

[Vali]

My point is that a plant "not minding" something is a weak argument for everyone to do it.

I didn't say that everyone should do it. Reread my first post and notice it was formulated as an opinion.

1) shows my collecting mix, as described in this article, with 7-15mm pumice grains.

7 to 15 mm is quite a difference, it's not really the "same size", is it?

I guess we can quibble about what it means for particles to be the "same" size. But his approach seems very different from mixing 1 mm particles with 16 mm particles.

Of course his approach is different than mine, I've never stated otherwise. The only one quibbling here is you. I didn't criticize anyone for using the same particle size in their substrate, only you did that with me. That is not usefull for anyone. Let's stick to opinions and not hijack the thread with a stupid argument.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Of course his approach is different than mine, I've never stated otherwise.

Uh huh. You literally said exactly that 2 minutes ago: "I'm not the only one doing this. Harry Harrington and Sebastijan Sandev are only 2 of the bonsai professionals who use different size particles and they have amazing trees."

 

[Vali]

Uh huh. You literally said exactly that 2 minutes ago: "I'm not the only one doing this. Harry Harrington and Sebastijan Sandev are only 2 of the bonsai professionals who use different size particles and they have amazing trees."

Who use different size particles. I didn't say they use 1-16 mm baked clay and perlite
Can we, please, stop this nonsense?

 

[Clicio]

7 to 15 mm is quite a difference, it's not really the "same size", is it?

Harry and @leatherback stated they use different sized particles (in a much narrow range than 16~1mm ) for collected trees.
Yamadori.
Big grow boxes.
Completely different from a shallow bonsai pot with a finished tree inside.
But as I have said before, they are your trees, do as you see fit.
But I think you should take the time to read the @markyscott resource. Very informative.

 

[Vali]

I have a linden planted in particles between about 1 mm and 16mm. It grew insane since last november when it was collected.

Harry and @leatherback stated they use different sized particles (in a much narrow range than 16~1mm ) for collected trees.
Yamadori.
Big grow boxes.

Notice I was talking specifically about a linden when I said those sizes. Collected tree in a big grow box. My other trees don't have such a big difference between the particles. You missed some details

 

[leatherback]

All my trees are planted in different particle sizes and they don't seem to mind at

@Vali this sentence can be read as, all my trees are in pots with multiple sizes mixed, or, each of my trees gets a specific size range, which varies from pot to put.

might be a source of confusion?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Correct. It is a huge myth. It actually hurts drainage because of the perched water table that forms at the layer boundary.

It also comes with another severe drawback--roots will often decline to cross the boundary. Thus hampering root development and further risking over saturation.

I have found none of this to be true.

 

[Vali]

@Vali this sentence can be read as, all my trees are in pots with multiple sizes mixed, or, each of my trees gets a specific size range, which varies from pot to put.

might be a source of confusion?

It could, indeed. That's why I will explain the substrate mix I use in more detail.
Except for the ones recently bought that will be repotted next year, all my trees are planted in baked clay and perlite. For some I used 3-5 mm baked clay, but for others I bought, for economic reasons, 8-16 mm baked clay, which I've broken down to smaller particles. I mix perlite with that, but not so much as to make the substrate airless. I always sifted the perlite to remove the dust and the smallest pieces.
The linden I was talking about was collected last november, in an evening. It was late, dark and cold when I potted it and I used for substrate what I had around. I didn't have enough small particled clay, so I used the bigger, uncrushed ones too. And I didn't sift the perlite either.
This is the tree a few days after collection

This is it this year before pruning it's second flush

Unfortunatelly, I don't have a picture of it's third flush, yet.

 

[sorce]

The larger the particle, the less space for roots.

Less roots, less health.

Folks mostly compensate for this by not having any roots, and using pots that are too large. Ok, it's not a compensation, it is just what is going on.

You get the most root per cubic CM with 8822.

I though I was going to switch....but....no....it just works too well.

You can't fit 14mm particles in some pots.

Sorce

 

[Clicio]

..
it was late, dark and cold when I potted it and I used for substrate what I had around.

I'm glad it obviously worked for you, the tree indeed looks happy.
Good to know also that you don't mix every particle size for every bonsai.

 

[Clicio]

I have found none of this to be true.

Now I got very interested about you view on this matter, @Brian Van Fleet , it's surely polemical and I wish I could learn more about it. Do you have some text about it in your blog? Thanks !

 

[Vali]

I'm glad it obviously worked for you, the tree indeed looks happy.
Good to know also that you don't mix every particle size for every bonsai.

Like Sorce said:

You can't fit 14mm particles in some pots.

The pieces must be kept smaller in small pots. I could always see the logic in that; I am not that ignorant

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Now I got very interested about you view on this matter, @Brian Van Fleet , it's surely polemical and I wish I could learn more about it. Do you have some text about it in your blog? Thanks !

Yes, multiple times but you’d have to search and find it as an observation in repotting posts. I’ve already violated my principles to not get involved in soil or fertilizer debates here.

 

[leatherback]

You can't fit 14mm particles in some pots.

Sure. Just let it peek out!

 

[sorce]

Sure. Just let it peek out!

I had a line about it being confused for root over rock, but couldn't.....make it fit!

Sorce