Douglas fir Repotting Experiment

Not too long after bud break when extension is almost fully extended but still green enough to twist and break with fingers. New buds usually form near or at the break site. Also late winter to early spring before bud movement pruning to 2-5 yr old growth, buds form at needle base at pruning sites.
 
A question for you. Did all your plants have a second flush? I almost never see that here, only in cases of very hard pruning on the young forest trees I've experimented on. Same with spruce for me here, I know they can flush twice but that has only happened for me once so far. A climate/length of growing season thing maybe? Mine usually start to flush in mid may and start getting frosted end of sept.
 
Did all your plants have a second flush? I almost never see that here, only in cases of very hard pruning on the young forest trees I've experimented on. Same with spruce for me here, I know they can flush twice but that has only happened for me once so far. A climate/length of growing season thing maybe? Mine usually start to flush in mid may and start getting frosted end of sept.

Yes, they all had a second flush (exceptions were the few sickly/dying/dead). It was very early in 2013 (see post #11 of this thread) and it was late July in 2014. I have no explanation for why it was so early in 2013.

From what I've read, second flushing is controlled mostly by moisture - rarely occurs in the forest, but common under irrigation. Obviously, it is not the whole story.

Daily high/low/average temps for 2013 are in the third chart attached to post #12 - it is representative of my climate.

I have only had a picea pungens, until recently, and it has never produced a second flush. But it may be because it has not been particularly healthy (i.e., it is a rescue project).
 
I've got to ask WHY you would use a poor soil substitute that is known for very poor root propagation/nurtuing.
If you ask why I say that there is a blog post on this with photos for proof from one of the western USAs better known bonsai gurus and teachers. I would never use turface because of this.
 
I've got to ask WHY you would use a poor soil substitute that is known for very poor root propagation/nurtuing.
If you ask why I say that there is a blog post on this with photos for proof from one of the western USAs better known bonsai gurus and teachers. I would never use turface because of this.

Let me guess, you read a rant by Michael Hagadorn.

I use Turface because, it is cheap, readily available, and I get excellent root growth. Equally relevant, IMHO, is that I use Osmocote which does not modify the aeration and water retention of Turface (or of any inorganic medium), unlike virtually every form of organic fertilizer. I am not claiming that Osmocote has any magical properties. Its temperture dependent release is just conventient. Any chemical fertilizer could be substituted to the same end.

Perhaps this paper from the Utah State University Crop Physiology Laboratory, for example, will be of interest for you to contrast against the blog post you read.
 
What you call a rant was the well considered experience and observations of a well qualified bonsai professional, not a crop physiologist. Growing something in a bonsai pot is vastly different from growing crops in the ground. If we are wise we should be willing to listen to good advice from others more learned than we are. Many ARE more learned than I am. Frankly I would consider myself to have no smarts at all to ignore such advice and experiment with my trees valuable lives just because the substrate is cheaper.
 
I've got to ask WHY you would use a poor soil substitute that is known for very poor root propagation/nurtuing.
If you ask why I say that there is a blog post on this with photos for proof from one of the western USAs better known bonsai gurus and teachers. I would never use turface because of this.
But...have YOU used Turface, or are you repeating what you read?
 
What you call a rant was the well considered experience and observations of a well qualified bonsai professional

Reread Michael's post substituting 'excrement' for 'Turface'. Now, are you an anti-poo evangelist?

Growing something in a bonsai pot is vastly different from growing crops in the ground.

The title of the 2 page paper to which I provided a link is titled 'Greenhouse Studies on Root Growth and Morphology'. They list characteristics of Turface and show pix of their growth tubes and roots produced - pretty close to growing trees in pots, IMHO.

Many ARE more learned than I am
 
I've got to ask WHY you would use a poor soil substitute that is known for very poor root propagation/nurtuing.
If you ask why I say that there is a blog post on this with photos for proof from one of the western USAs better known bonsai gurus and teachers. I would never use turface because of this.


I believed that article too, even attacked OSO a bit about it in a different experiment thread. (Sorry for that)

Now, OSO has me thoroughly convinced MVP, if watered properly, in the proper climate, will produce good to great roots.

Thank you OSO!

Sorce
 
Turface isn't evil; I used 150 lb. this spring.
People use far worse, with commensurate results.
 

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I believed that article too, even attacked OSO a bit about it in a different experiment thread. (Sorry for that)

Now, OSO has me thoroughly convinced MVP, if watered properly, in the proper climate, will produce good to great roots.

Thank you OSO!

Sorce

So will diatomaceous earth,pumice and combinations of all. If you buy into everything written about different substrates you will never grow a bonsai. Everybody thinks they know all there is to growing trees and it gets put out there for everyone to see. So much conflicting information will have you second guessing yourself at every turn.
I've seen pictures of awesome roots grown in turface. In fact the only pictures that I see of poor roots grown in turface I believe we're in the Hagedorn article.
Maybe he wasn't doing something right. Osoyoung here posts pictures of his roots grown in turface and they look fantastic. I have a thread with pictures of a hinoki cypress grown in oil dri that don't look all that bad.
We figure out what works for us in our area and the big thing, what is available. Akadama is pretty much out of the question for me. Too cold,thaw,freeze break down and expensive. Performance to dollar ratio is low.
All soil or substrate do is hold the tree up and retain moisture. The earth isn't covered in Akadama and trees grow everywhere.
 
I believed that article too, even attacked OSO a bit about it in a different experiment thread. (Sorry for that)
Registering your opinion isn't an attack --> no apologies --> not to worry.

Maybe he wasn't doing something right.
From discussions of that article here on BNut and other forums, it became clear that Michael's problem arose from the use of organic fertilizer with Turface (the bumper sticker I have in mind is 'don't put shit in Turface'). There are people who do use poo with Turface successfully. They use teabags or frequently scrape away the top 'layer' and replace it so that the organic solids don't make 'Turfcrete' (if I may coin a term).

Turface isn't evil
Amen.
 
You Can Too


The water potential of the air is proportional to the Kelvin temperature of times the natural logarithm of the relative humidity. You don’t need to do any arithmetic, I've plotted some lines of constant water potential in the attached charts. The important point to note is that water potential is almost independent of temperature, over the range for which our trees are growing.

Our perceptions that higher temperature means more transpiration stress comes from the fact that on any given day, the relative humidity goes down as the air heats up. I've also plotted the temperature and relative humidity that were recorded every 5 minutes for a period of 7 days, starting with the day I repotted. Notice how this ‘cloud’ reflects the daily trend we all know so well of humidity going down as the air heats up and goes back up when the atmosphere cools down again at night (on any given day, transpiration stress is greatest in the afternoon).

Generally, the warmer it is the faster plants grow, up to a point. For temperate species, growth stops when the temperature climbs above 90F to 100F because metabolic activity is consuming all the food produced by photosynthesis and then some (i.e., there is nothing left over to make more tree). More importantly, however, trees cannot recover from repotting unless the roots can grow, which means they must be at a temperature below about 90F.

I am confident that this can be done in drier climes than Anacortes, however, it is difficult for me to anticipate times when the relative humidity drops below 50%. I do not have a controlled humidity facility to explore where this limitation might be. In other words, I am (or we are) dependent upon someone living in a drier climate (e.g., in CO, WY, MT, ALB) informing me (or us) about their results with repotting after the summer solstice.

Regardless, repotting pseudotsuga menziesii var. glauca is possible at times other than 'as buds swell'.

Thank you for posting your data! I have a particular interest, since I just collected a yamadori Doug fir a month ago. So, assuming a root temperature below 90F, you feel that late summer transplanting should be safe down to some lower limit of relative humidity? We are extremely dry in New Mexico, but we have the summer monsoon, which brings regular afternoon thundershowers the last two to three weeks in July and all of August. I would think that should make August a good month to transplant.
 
Thanks for you response.
So, assuming a root temperature below 90F, you feel that late summer transplanting should be safe down to some lower limit of relative humidity?
Yes, I do, though I do not know what the lower limit is.
We are extremely dry in New Mexico, but we have the summer monsoon, which brings regular afternoon thundershowers the last two to three weeks in July and all of August. I would think that should make August a good month to transplant.
Yes, I agree.
I look forward to hearing about your impending experience.
 
Wow, prior to degrading to a turface conversation, this post is awesome. Great job Oso.

Patrik
 
hey can you do this for a the fir with the flat needles? I collected one last year. its still alive. all the data I have hah. nice work, thorough, I'm sure I can use this info.
 
hey can you do this for a the fir with the flat needles? I collected one last year. its still alive. all the data I have hah. nice work, thorough, I'm sure I can use this info.
A fir with flat needles is a Douglas Fir.
 
A fir with flat needles is a Douglas Fir.

there is another kind of fir, it sends needles only out horizontally from the branch. balsam fir was what I was referring too. anyone think this data holds true for a balsam?
 
there is another kind of fir, it sends needles only out horizontally from the branch. balsam fir was what I was referring too. anyone think this data holds true for a balsam?

Until I learn better I'm satisfied to treat Abies, Picea and pseudotsuga all in a similar fashion, slight variations in substrate maybe. So, probably would be my guess.
I don't think a balsam fir would take to hot and dry, full sun as well as a Douglas fir either.
 
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