[Dingus] quercus gambelli #1

[LittleDingus]

Yep. I think that's why the one I dug has made it so far. Lava and pumice, and twice-daily watering!

I do need to be carefull here in spring and fall. Our spring this year has been cool and rainy so I've been trying to let it dry out when I can. Cool + damp = rot My biggest fear with this tree is a fungal infection it's not adapted to deal with...

Our summers get hot and humid though. Even with the humidity, the soil gets pretty dry after a day of heat. I do water twice during the worst of it.

Are you at elevation there in UT? I image you're pretty low/non-existant humidity? What are daytime temps like for you in summer? We can consistently be >90F but at like 80% humidity And it doesn't cool down much at night with those kinds of humidities

We did the national park run when we were there: north to south...or desert to oasis?? We started at Arches and ended at Zion.

I'm pretty surprised at how well this thing has grown for only entering it's second growing season. I'm worried it'll tumble hard any time now...it's quite a bit out of its natural habitat!

I'm inside where I can see your pictures better. Your oak is much bigger than mine is . The taller ones we saw tended to have thick black bark. I'm guessing yours is still pretty young? Even the "tall" trees we saw didn't have trunks much thicker than that...maybe twice as thick? And no taper. Some of them really looked more like vines than what I'm used to seeing in an oak!

 

[Flowerhouse]

@LittleDingus I will try to get pics of the Gambel oaks where I collect in Colorado. At 8,500 feet, growing in a granite shelf, most of them only 2 feet tall because of grazing animals, gnarly twisted trunks, and very near a clump of equally stubby chokecherries. In my childhood in Colorado Springs, oak groves were where we picked asparagus in spring, chokecherries in August.

 

[LittleDingus]

@LittleDingus I will try to get pics of the Gambel oaks where I collect in Colorado. At 8,500 feet, growing in a granite shelf, most of them only 2 feet tall because of grazing animals, gnarly twisted trunks, and very near a clump of equally stubby chokecherries. In my childhood in Colorado Springs, oak groves were where we picked asparagus in spring, chokecherries in August.

I went through some of our pictures from Utah. We did see some much bigger gambelli than I remember.

These were all over Arches National Park. I didn't even realize they were oak until I found some with acorns! Oaks are some of the bigger trees here in the midwest. I'm not used to seeing a forest of oak where every tree is below me knees! It is rare to see the sky let alone the horizon in our oak forests...yet I could see horizon in every direction in the middle of this forest



As best I could research, these are gambelli...but their leaves aren't as lobed due to low water availability. If any of you natives know that my research is wrong and know what these really are, I'd love to know so I can add them to the list

There were a few larger oak trees here and there in Arches. This looks to be the biggest oak I took a picture of inside Arches National Park.



We also repelled just outside of Moab. We repelled into some canyons that drained into the Colorado river. The gambelli there had foliage with more defined lobes and the trees themselves were larger. Here's a grove we hiked past.



And, while still not the sort of trunk I think of when I think "oak", it turns out we did see some trees with decently large trunks:



I was just more struck by the more spindly ones!

I couldn't find the pictures, but we saw one gambelli that I think was in Capitol Reef National Park that was growing up the side of a cliff. Well, it was growing out the top of a small cliff face, but the side of the cliff was slowly eroding away exposing a long 30' or more root! We saw lots of juniper roots being exposed and trailing across large distances as well.

 

[luvinthemountains]

Are you at elevation there in UT? I image you're pretty low/non-existant humidity?

I am at just over 5,000' elevation, just over Canaan Mountain from Zion. Winters are pretty mild, but we occasionally get down into the single digits. Summers are 90+ highs for sure, and often over 100F. Humidity is typically pretty low, but there is usually a monsoon season in August when we get a lot of moisture coming up through Phoenix.

I'm guessing yours is still pretty young?

I think so, but age is relative in the desert. This tree might be 30 years old. The tallest trunk is about five feet and has plated black bark like you describe. The suckers have smooth, tan bark.

There are old stands in the same canyon over 15' high and thicket-like. In the park at the bottom of the canyon, with irrigation, they are much bigger.

 

[LittleDingus]

I am at just over 5,000' elevation, just over Canaan Mountain from Zion. Winters are pretty mild, but we occasionally get down into the single digits. Summers are 90+ highs for sure, and often over 100F. Humidity is typically pretty low, but there is usually a monsoon season in August when we get a lot of moisture coming up through Phoenix.



I think so, but age is relative in the desert. This tree might be 30 years old. The tallest trunk is about five feet and has plated black bark like you describe. The suckers have smooth, tan bark.

There are old stands in the same canyon over 15' high and thicket-like. In the park at the bottom of the canyon, with irrigation, they are much bigger.

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Ooh! I really like that clump! It is very well formed!

 

[LittleDingus]

I think it is so cool what you are doing, @LittleDingus! I have always loved these trees. I may want to follow your lead and get some acorns. Gambels grow in canyons and foothills where I am, but they are hard to dig. I was amazed when this one budded out this spring, given I had to saw off a 4" trunk under ground to get it out. I suspect it was a tap root, but it was fully barked!

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Yeah, I am not really sure what I'll do with it now. The nice clump appearance in the ground sort of disappeared once in a pot. But you can see the effect you are talking about here.

@luvinthemountains, how is this one doing? I think if you clean up some of the scrub it can get that nice clump look back??

There are lots of small branches/twigs in there that just look messy at this scale. I'm hoping to hide all that with a wall of foliage on mine...but your tree is much bigger. It might look nice with a bushy canopy over a couple of trunks?

Your tree...do what you want with it I'm really just curious how it's surviving collection

 

[LittleDingus]

We've had rain shower after rain shower for a few days now. Not a ton of rain overall...all the showers were pretty short. A few storms mixed in there...but also short. But, the net effect is my trees have gotten an overabundance of water and an under allowance of sun the past week or so. It's to the point that this guy is growing some white mildew.



and the the soil is growing algae and turning green



The tree itself still seems to be doing well...but I'd really like it to dry out some now.

...and I absolutely adore the shape of the leaves on these...especially when they are small

 

[luvinthemountains]

@luvinthemountains, how is this one doing?

Unfortunately it is on life support right now. A few weeks ago, it was full of bright green, happy leaves. Then we had two weeks straight of blistering heat, well over 100F, and about 75% of the leaves turned crispy. We have had about a week of pleasant weather in the mid-90's and a good thunderstorm with resulting humidity, which I am hoping helps. It still has a small number of green leaves on most of the trunks but more encouragingly, I see what I think are swelling buds in many places. I think I may get another flush within the next month. We shall see.

 

[LittleDingus]

Unfortunately it is on life support right now. A few weeks ago, it was full of bright green, happy leaves. Then we had two weeks straight of blistering heat, well over 100F, and about 75% of the leaves turned crispy. We have had about a week of pleasant weather in the mid-90's and a good thunderstorm with resulting humidity, which I am hoping helps. It still has a small number of green leaves on most of the trunks but more encouragingly, I see what I think are swelling buds in many places. I think I may get another flush within the next month. We shall see.

I rooting for it! Mine has very quickly become my favorite oak just on leaf shape alone

Mine takes our heat quite well...which is good since after a solid week of rains, that's where we're headed now! But we rarely get over 100F...too much humidity here! When it's in the 90F range here, we typically have 80% humidity...

 

[Sunwyrm]

Following! I just picked up a 7' nursery gambel oak this spring on clearance. I've been pulling up other oak/gambel threads and they all have mid-July to September being the optimal time to do everything, I'm shooting for an August repot when I work on my junipers.

 

[LittleDingus]

Following! I just picked up a 7' nursery gambel oak this spring on clearance. I've been pulling up other oak/gambel threads and they all have mid-July to September being the optimal time to do everything, I'm shooting for an August repot when I work on my junipers.

Pics...or a thread...or it didn't happen

I prefer to repot my oaks either in August after the heat breaks or wait until after the first few frosts. I'm not know for doing things the "right" way though!

We can get 100F plus in July/early August. I don't touch anything then! Too uncomfortable for ME to be working in dirt

Seriously though...I would love to see a picture of your nursery tree

 

[Sunwyrm]

Pics...or a thread...or it didn't happen

I prefer to repot my oaks either in August after the heat breaks or wait until after the first few frosts. I'm not know for doing things the "right" way though!

We can get 100F plus in July/early August. I don't touch anything then! Too uncomfortable for ME to be working in dirt

Seriously though...I would love to see a picture of your nursery tree

I have been so lazy about pics lately! Thank you for motivating me

 

[LemonBonsai]

We've had rain shower after rain shower for a few days now. Not a ton of rain overall...all the showers were pretty short. A few storms mixed in there...but also short. But, the net effect is my trees have gotten an overabundance of water and an under allowance of sun the past week or so. It's to the point that this guy is growing some white mildew.

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and the the soil is growing algae and turning green

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The tree itself still seems to be doing well...but I'd really like it to dry out some now.

...and I absolutely adore the shape of the leaves on these...especially when they are small

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Forgive me if I am mistaken since I am still very much a noob at this . If you have well draining soil mix isn't it pretty much impossible to overwater/ have root rot because of the constant flow of water replacing old water /oxygen? I had the understanding that the bacteria that causes root rot forms in standing water, so if its getting watered once or twice or three times a day, the water is always moving I would have thought that as long as rain keeps coming it would be ok. Or is this a species related problem where oaks like to dry out specifically?

 

[LittleDingus]

Forgive me if I am mistaken since I am still very much a noob at this . If you have well draining soil mix isn't it pretty much impossible to overwater/ have root rot because of the constant flow of water replacing old water /oxygen? I had the understanding that the bacteria that causes root rot forms in standing water, so if its getting watered once or twice or three times a day, the water is always moving I would have thought that as long as rain keeps coming it would be ok. Or is this a species related problem where oaks like to dry out specifically?

You are correct: standing water is bad. My concern is the formation of too much fungus...and especially algee...that can prevent proper drainage and form anaerobic regions with lots of moisture right up against the roots even without standing water.

The white powdery mildew concerns me only because I don't know what it is and it's not "normal" in my pots. It's probably harmless to a healthy oak though.

The green I worry about more. It is not moss...it is an algee. I get it in some of my ficus with stranded sphagnum in the soil. I get it on the outside of my grow bags if they stay too wet without ample ventilation. I only get it on the DE soil if it has been too wet for too long. It gets slimy and stays wet in a bad way

 

[LemonBonsai]

You are correct: standing water is bad. My concern is the formation of too much fungus...and especially algee...that can prevent proper drainage and form anaerobic regions with lots of moisture right up against the roots even without standing water.

The white powdery mildew concerns me only because I don't know what it is and it's not "normal" in my pots. It's probably harmless to a healthy oak though.

The green I worry about more. It is not moss...it is an algee. I get it in some of my ficus with stranded sphagnum in the soil. I get it on the outside of my grow bags if they stay too wet without ample ventilation. I only get it on the DE soil if it has been too wet for too long. It gets slimy and stays wet in a bad way

ah I see now that makes sense! Hope you get some dry days soon!

 

[LittleDingus]

I have been so lazy about pics lately! Thank you for motivating me

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Yeah...mine will never get that big!

Do you have thoughts for where you want to go with it?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Once had this problem. Drilled several holes in bottom of(plastic nursery)pot, some around lower margins of sides and cutback H2O some. Tree stopped dying/began recovery growth.

 

[LittleDingus]

ah I see now that makes sense! Hope you get some dry days soon!

@LemonBonsai this was my concern



It now puddles and it takes a few seconds for the puddles to drain Even when it does drain, all that green is slime.

This tree was just potted in September...it hasn't been in this pot a year yet! When it was potted, the roots were entirely in the other half of the pot. I haven't poked around under the soil...maybe later tonight...but I doubt there are significant roots in this half of the pot yet. I suspect the slow drainage is mostly because the soil is getting clogged up with mycorrhizae (good) and algae (not so good).

I am using a pretty fine mix: diatomaceous earth (NAPA 8822) mostly. It's the same mix I use in most of what I grow. It usually drains very fast...it's still draining very fast for most of my plants. But a few have picked up algae growth and they are starting to show bad signs like this I have a few ficus that are starting to puddle a bit after less than a year as well.

A larger grain size would help...at least for a while...

 

[Sunwyrm]

It now puddles and it takes a few seconds for the puddles to drain Even when it does drain, all that green is slime.

Wow, I use Napa 8822 and I never see anything like that. Any idea why algae's growing on just some of the trees?

Yeah...mine will never get that big!

Do you have thoughts for where you want to go with it?

No clue! Just planning to reduce the height and repot for now. I'll try to remember to post updates after my initial work on it

 

[LittleDingus]

Wow, I use Napa 8822 and I never see anything like that. Any idea why algae's growing on just some of the trees?

Usually it's only a problem when I have long strand sphagnum in the mix...which I do for structure and moisture retention. Even though the sphagnum is dried, I don't think it's sterilized. I suspect spore comes from there. Just a suspicion.

This tree has no sphagnum to speak of. We have had a wet year and my tendency is to over water. The neighbors are usually starting to lose the fight to keep their grass green by now. Most haven't even started to water yet! It's mucked with my fertilizing and much of my stuff hasn't grown as it normally does. I think it may have just gotten an early foothold in this pot and it self perpetuates. The soil stays wetter which promotes more growth, etc...

I did go rake it...which helps. I'm not sure how good this picture is



There are some roots all the way out to that side! But nothing like a mat yet.

The crust was nearly half an inch thick but broke up readily. After some raking, the green is gone and the soil drains more normally again. I doubt I set the algae back permanently, however.

It's really not a big problem unless I don't catch it soon enough. My concern with this particular tree is it's native range is a more arid environment and I'm intentionally trying to grow foliage to hide the soil.