[Dingus] ficus benjamina "too little"

[Cadillactaste]

*Dwarf benjamina varieties.

But, hey...you do you. Call them what you want @Forsoothe! Honestly thought you may want clarification. But alas...not the case. But at the end of the day...your classification of your trees. Don't concern me. ~Enjoy your journey.

 

[Forsoothe!]

*Dwarf benjamina varieties.

But, hey...you do you. Call them what you want @Forsoothe! Honestly thought you may want clarification. But alas...not the case. But at the end of the day...your classification of your trees. Don't concern me. ~Enjoy your journey.

I do want clarification, but you are not listening to what I'm saying, so I'll say it again, Jerry Meislik has written a couple good books on Ficus and their care, but doesn't make him the final authority on all the species in trade. In fact, look at this list of recent patents of Ficus. Keep in mind that most new plants are not patented. You must be sure that a new plant will be commercially viable and the patent is just one step in the process of commercialization. It costs about $10,000 for a search and to register the patent, you need to pay a group to enforce your patent, and the plant patent needs to be refreshed every four or five years for about $4,000. You gotta sell a hell of a lot of plants on an on-going basis to recoup just those costs which still do not put a single plant into a pot. You need to be sure the plant can be reproduced via a process that will produce enough stable plants that do not loose the characteristics that make it a plant with distinct differences. Just another nice green plant is worth nothing in the marketplace and very few new plants are distinct enough to entice a grower to take a chance introducing it. They have to build an inventory that is years long so that when it is released to the market they don't run out of stock after year one. They don't want to sell more than they have, or less, either.

I'm still searching for the central registry for the genus Ficus.

 

[Cadillactaste]

@Forsoothe! You should share foliage of these trees close up. So we can better understand.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I was busy today and will take good shots of them tomorrow. I have requested the name of the registry group for Ficus from the ISHS.

 

[HENDO]

Not sure if this is helpful or not but thought I should contribute because I don't find much information on these online. Here is my "Too Little" which is purportedly one of the original mother plants.

Leaf size ranges from 0.5-1.5", the larger leaves are more common on areas of the tree that see less pruning, but still much smaller than my other more standard Benjamina.

I find the bark has much more of a yellow/beige shade to it than standard Benjamina.

Very fun tree to work on. This won 1st Place Novice Category in the Houston Bonsai Society 2020 Fall Show, although I can't take any credit for the design.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Not sure if this is helpful or not but thought I should contribute because I don't find much information on these online. Here is my "Too Little" which is purportedly one of the original mother plants.

Leaf size ranges from 0.5-1.5", the larger leaves are more common on areas of the tree that see less pruning, but still much smaller than my other more standard Benjamina.

I find the bark has much more of a yellow/beige shade to it than standard Benjamina.

Very fun tree to work on. This won 1st Place Novice Category in the Houston Bonsai Society 2020 Fall Show, although I can't take any credit for the design.

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Stunning...thanks for sharing.

 

[Cadillactaste]

@HENDO ... that tree deserves more than I put. It's actually one of the nicest specimens of Too Little I've seen..

 

[Forsoothe!]

Not sure if this is helpful or not but thought I should contribute because I don't find much information on these online. Here is my "Too Little" which is purportedly one of the original mother plants.

Leaf size ranges from 0.5-1.5", the larger leaves are more common on areas of the tree that see less pruning, but still much smaller than my other more standard Benjamina.

I find the bark has much more of a yellow/beige shade to it than standard Benjamina.

Very fun tree to work on. This won 1st Place Novice Category in the Houston Bonsai Society 2020 Fall Show, although I can't take any credit for the design.

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It is helpful. Good pictures, too.

 

[HENDO]

@HENDO ... that tree deserves more than I put. It's actually one of the nicest specimens of Too Little I've seen..

Glad you like it! You wouldn't believe how many people walked past this tree during the private sale when I first saw it. I liked it so much I ended up purchasing it a month later at a very reasonable price. I will try to not let it get out of control and keep this design in mind.

I dug into its history and this comes from a very reputable source here: Purchased from Guy Guidry at an LSBF convention ~2003 (6 feet tall), apparently one of the original stock trees from Atchison's Nursery where TL was developed and patented.

@Cadillactaste your posts on TL were some of the only information other than the patent that came up during my searches, so thanks for that and thanks to everybody contributing to this post here - very interesting to see some discussion on this under-appreciated cultivar.

 

[Cadillactaste]

@HENDO wow! That is so cool the pedigree it holds. Glad it went to one who appreciates it.

I'm glad my small posts offered a glimpse into how amazing this cultivar is.. I reached out to a few ficus guys to pick brains.. but nothing quite like Adam's face when he held up my tree with one hand.. that was priceless. He even took it up to discuss taper at the demo. Explaining he had never guessed the tree so small. Illusions...that's what this hobby is about.

Yours...I can imagine in a field all glorious..

 

[HENDO]

@HENDO wow! That is so cool the pedigree it holds. Glad it went to one who appreciates it.

I'm glad my small posts offered a glimpse into how amazing this cultivar is.. I reached out to a few ficus guys to pick brains.. but nothing quite like Adam's face when he held up my tree with one hand.. that was priceless. He even took it up to discuss taper at the demo. Explaining he had never guessed the tree so small. Illusions...that's what this hobby is about.

Yours...I can imagine in a field all glorious..

@Cadillactaste another glimpse this time from the past - picture from the previous owner who I purchased it from, taken in 2014. Shows how much development can happen in 6 years!

Not meaning to hijack the original post @LittleDingus just wanted to share! I saw you mentioned aerial roots/banyan, but perhaps some inspiration in case you go a different direction.

 

[luvinthemountains]

The International Society for Horticultural Science does not have a genera-specific International Cultivar Registration Authority for ficus, @Forsoothe!. See https://www.ishs.org/sci/taxlist/ftaxlist.htm. From my brief research, it does not appear that there is a central registry at all, which might have given the incentive for growers to undergo the time and expense of patenting their cultivars. Now, a really interesting endeavor would be sequencing the genome of ficus trees of uncertain provenance. I have only heard of it being done once (I think it was cited in World of Ficus Bonsai, but I will have to look), but the sequencing provided a key link between two previously separate cultivars.

 

[Forsoothe!]

The International Society for Horticultural Science does not have a genera-specific International Cultivar Registration Authority for ficus, @Forsoothe!. See https://www.ishs.org/sci/taxlist/ftaxlist.htm. From my brief research, it does not appear that there is a central registry at all, which might have given the incentive for growers to undergo the time and expense of patenting their cultivars. Now, a really interesting endeavor would be sequencing the genome of ficus trees of uncertain provenance. I have only heard of it being done once (I think it was cited in World of Ficus Bonsai, but I will have to look), but the sequencing provided a key link between two previously separate cultivars.

Thank you again, very good info. In a world nearing 8 billion souls, there will be groups cataloging everything under the sun, and I hope one of them is fascinated by figs...

 

[Forsoothe!]

OK, kick these around. Arranged close to those that look like closest relatives.

 

[LittleDingus]

More info on the war of "too little" vs "not too little"

The nursery where I originally bought this has them in stock again. What they have in stock looks identical to what mine in leaf size, shape and coloration. They are labeled "too little" which I know doesn't mean much.

Compared to @HENDO's specimen (which is pretty damn awesome!), the leaves on mine are comparable size:



Remember, my tree has no ramification...some of my leaves are still on the larger side.

Coloration wise, mine has that same lemon/lime coloring of new/old growth. My picture is bad because it's raining, but, if you look close, mine has the edging of yellow specks in the leaves as well. If it's not "too little", it's close enough for me

Anyway, it's starting to fill in some again.



No wire, but I have been working those bottom branches out some to widen the tree a bit. The top needs to flare out some more to "round" the canopy more too...I might need to brake down and wire up there though. The bottom branches are easy enough to get my fingers in there and bend every day or two. It springs back, but its working well enough. The top is hard to get into.

It might be time to start pinching growth tips to fill it in more too...2 nights in the mid 40F this past week though I'd like to see it get warmer.

As for the top I lopped off? It fully defoliated itself and sat like a stupid little stick for about a month before slowly starting to leaf out.



It could use some heat to increase it's vigor now as well! The current potted tree I really like the looks of so that one will stay that size for the duration...I'll just work more on filling it in. This cutting might be more of a 10 year project...I'd like to have one of these with some heft to it

 

[Forsoothe!]

Ya know, the problem may be that there is no convenient mechanism to register new variants, and in conjunction little reason to do so in a trade where it costs a bundle to protect your rights from propagators in 160 countries around the world. If the market won't support the initial $10k patent costs and call it $1K yearly thereafter, why bother? In the Hosta business there is a market for special new plants, but they have to be really, really special and survive the ten-foot test: They need to be obviously different and special from ten feet away. Even then, how many $50 plants do you have to sell to cover the costs over & above costs of doing business? The Dutchmen who tissue culture millions of plants a year for the world market just stick with something similar and only collectors buy special plants. Patenting plants is strictly for ego gratification. And deep pockets. There is a easy system to register Hosta with the American Hosta Society. All you have to do is be a member. Roses are basically the same thing. Outside of the Royal Hort Society there is very little formal organization, especially within single genus'. So no one keeps track, either. Anyone can take over and become the expert in a given genus just by assembling & publishing a monograph and everybody else just buys the book and uses it for reference. As each new kid issued a new, revised monograph he goes to the head of the line, about 25 years apart, one each generation. At least that's the way it has evolved in Hosta where there is a big market, world-wide.

 

[LittleDingus]

Ya know, the problem may be that there is no convenient mechanism to register new variants, and in conjunction little reason to do so in a trade where it costs a bundle to protect your rights from propagators in 160 countries around the world. If the market won't support the initial $10k patent costs and call it $1K yearly thereafter, why bother? In the Hosta business there is a market for special new plants, but they have to be really, really special and survive the ten-foot test: They need to be obviously different and special from ten feet away. Even then, how many $50 plants do you have to sell to cover the costs over & above costs of doing business? The Dutchmen who tissue culture millions of plants a year for the world market just stick with something similar and only collectors buy special plants. Patenting plants is strictly for ego gratification. And deep pockets. There is a easy system to register Hosta with the American Hosta Society. All you have to do is be a member. Roses are basically the same thing. Outside of the Royal Hort Society there is very little formal organization, especially within single genus'. So no one keeps track, either. Anyone can take over and become the expert in a given genus just by assembling & publishing a monograph and everybody else just buys the book and uses it for reference. As each new kid issued a new, revised monograph he goes to the head of the line, about 25 years apart, one each generation. At least that's the way it has evolved in Hosta where there is a big market, world-wide.

I hear ya. I wasn't trying to "stir the pot"...just provide as accurate info as I could. It helps those who follow. Personally, I could care less what specific cultivar most of my plants may/may not be. A few I care about...but most...eh...

It's not only the cost of the patent...or enforcement...that is a problem. Having worked in a high tech career and been badgered to create patents from my work from time to time, there are a lot of flaws in the patent system itself. I love this patent, for instance:

CN104476978A - Method for making glyptostrobus pensilis bonsai - Google Patents

The invention discloses a method for making a glyptostrobus pensilis bonsai. The method comprises the following steps: firstly, selecting materials, i.e. digging out a glyptostrobus pensilis planted on the ground; secondly, cutting trunk for the first time, i.e. carrying out saw cutting on the...

patents.google.com

I've had legal leaning on my to make several similar patents. They want to protect our "intellectual property" but some of the stuff I was doing was already well known and common practice throughout that community. The only difference was, my system was a lot more efficient at it...but not in any novel way that I felt met the litmus test of "this is patentable".

I do have ethical conflicts sometimes because of copyrights and patents in my hobbies though. I'm currently air layering a patented plant and trying to strike cuttings from several others. Is that ethical? Should I be buying a "copy" every time I clone a protected cultivar?? The lawyers would say yes!

 

[HENDO]

Perfect timing for an update Mr. Dingus & Mr. Forsoothe! @LittleDingus @Forsoothe!

Will be working on this one with Pedro Morales tomorrow - well-needed maintenance/repot.

It's been growing unchecked since Winter and the largest leaf I could find today was 2", very old and leathery. About a dozen more in the 1.5-2.0" range, everything else smaller:

 

[LittleDingus]

Perfect timing for an update Mr. Dingus & Mr. Forsoothe! @LittleDingus @Forsoothe!

Will be working on this one with Pedro Morales tomorrow - well-needed maintenance/repot.

It's been growing unchecked since Winter and the largest leaf I could find today was 2", very old and leathery. About a dozen more in the 1.5-2.0" range, everything else smaller:

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@HENDO Do you get arial roots trying to form on yours?

I get lots of "eyes" but no elongation. I started to try and get one to grow but the tree was in an awkward place and I kept knocking my straw off every time I watered.

Now I've decided I like the tree better without them. I really only wanted to see if I could do it anyway...get some experience growing arial roots for another project. When I took pictures of mine this morning, I rubbed off probably a dozen root buds. There are still more higher up.

It's been over 2 years since this guy was first potted in this pot. Maybe it's time to pull it out and see if it's getting root bound??

 

[HENDO]

@HENDO Do you get arial roots trying to form on yours?

I get lots of "eyes" but no elongation. I started to try and get one to grow but the tree was in an awkward place and I kept knocking my straw off every time I watered.

Now I've decided I like the tree better without them. I really only wanted to see if I could do it anyway...get some experience growing arial roots for another project. When I took pictures of mine this morning, I rubbed off probably a dozen root buds. There are still more higher up.

It's been over 2 years since this guy was first potted in this pot. Maybe it's time to pull it out and see if it's getting root bound??

It pushes these little dinkies but so far they haven't tried turning into full aerial roots. Definitely wouldn't plan on keeping any with this particular design - will keep the banyan style for my Tiger Bark and maybe Burtt Davyi

Mine is super root bound, 2 years since last repot. When I water it is very slow to drain. The soil is between 1/8"-1/4" and at this stage in its life it seems to really like it, so I'll be repotting tomorrow with a very similar 1:1:1 APL size.