Digging up a birch for bonsai refinement

[Aphystic]

Hello, I’ve been out and scouting for a birch.

I have a few questions. I’ll add a few pictures as well if some candidates.

Can I dig up a rather bigger tree with not a lot of low branches and chop it off and it’ll grow new branches lower down the stem?

What should I look for, are there some dos and donts?

Is it ok to dig em up at this time of the year ?

 

[GGB]

I dig up trees most months of the year if they are young and healthy enough. But this is THE WORST possible time of the season IMO. Just wait for the spring. They thicken up a little more this fall anyway

 

[Aphystic]

I dig up trees most months of the year if they are young and healthy enough. But this is THE WORST possible time of the season IMO. Just wait for the spring. They thicken up a little more this fall anyway

Alright, are any of those a good candidate?

Will they grow new branches if chopped off if I would go for a bigger tree?

 

[rockm]

Alright, are any of those a good candidate?

Will they grow new branches if chopped off if I would go for a bigger tree?

Birch are not the greatest candidates for bonsai cultivation. They tend to drop branching, and be a bit finicky in containers.

And yes, you can (and should) look for larger trees to chop (reduce) into bonsai. Such reduction from larger trees is typical in bonsai cultivation. Little bonsai don't grow into larger bonsai. Larger bonsai are cut down and shaped into smaller bonsai.

 

[GGB]

I think those trunks are interesting enough. Most (all?) deciduous trees will sprout new growth when chopped. If you want a large, show stopping bonsai tree, the trees you pictured would be many years away from that. But it sounds like you may be just now getting into the hobby. If that's the case I think those trees will be great for learning, it's impossible to learn everything by reading (at least for me). It's more important to get out and experience things first hand. I think it would ill-advised to tell you to go dig up a nice large yamadori without any experience.

 

[Aphystic]

I think those trunks are interesting enough. Most (all?) deciduous trees will sprout new growth when chopped. If you want a large, show stopping bonsai tree, the trees you pictured would be many years away from that. But it sounds like you may be just now getting into the hobby. If that's the case I think those trees will be great for learning, it's impossible to learn everything by reading (at least for me). It's more important to get out and experience things first hand. I think it would ill-advised to tell you to go dig up a nice large yamadori without any experience.

I am rather new but I'm really getting into it and I have been doing plenty of homework lately regarding Bonsai.
I'll try to dig one up this spring (or is it better it autumn? Found articles about both seasons..) and plant it in a "normal" bigger pot until it has settled it and chop it. I suppose it's stupid to chop it and pot it into a bonsai pot?

I dug up a small native pine and spruce this early summer and they're doing great but they're nowhere near a bonsai yet.

Regarding size, should I be looking at these kind of sized birches? They're roughly the size of a normal carrot - or should I look for something a bit thicker?

 

[Tieball]

If you have not yet read this other posting…..Read through this post which talks about autumn collecting.

Collecting Deciduous Trees For Bonsai In Autumn/Fall

New article from: https://bonsai4me.com/collecting-deciduous-trees-for-bonsai-in-autumn-fall/?fbclid=IwAR2IOeJoukGiXB6__zK6mDtDZv7yRo8x3p8L0W-Vqa4LRk1_db51YjeqM_k "The roots of deciduous trees are very active in the late Summer and throughout the Autumn. Having spent the growing season...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[Aphystic]

If you have not yet read this other posting…..Read through this post which talks about autumn collecting.

Collecting Deciduous Trees For Bonsai In Autumn/Fall

New article from: https://bonsai4me.com/collecting-deciduous-trees-for-bonsai-in-autumn-fall/?fbclid=IwAR2IOeJoukGiXB6__zK6mDtDZv7yRo8x3p8L0W-Vqa4LRk1_db51YjeqM_k "The roots of deciduous trees are very active in the late Summer and throughout the Autumn. Having spent the growing season...

www.bonsainut.com

I did read it but I felt like it left out a lot of questions. They didn’t mention chopping and repotting into a bonsai pot simultaneously.

They also said it’s good to collect birch in fall when another article said to solely do it in spring

 

[GGB]

Regarding size, should I be looking at these kind of sized birches? They're roughly the size of a normal carrot - or should I look for something a bit thicker?

Good questions. The size/girth of the trunk just depends on the size of tree you want to create. The thicker the trunk (generally) the taller the tree. Of course a thick trunk can also be used to create a short powerful "sumo" tree. It's all a matter of taste. It is wise to buy or collect a trunk that is as big as you are looking for so you can begin the fun stuff, branching. I don't hesitate to collect younger stuff and grow it out personally, but that's just my style. Or was my style... my collection is almost non existent currently. I downsized hard. I can talk about this stuff all day but until you really start to see how much you can shorten internodes and what species will and won't play nicely, it's just kind of wasted air. I don't know much about birch, except that they are beautiful and can make great trees. If I were going to use one for bonsai, I personally, would be looking for a taller slender trunk because that is how I see them in the mountains and forests. A carrot sized trunk would typically be used to create a smaller tree. maybe less than 12" but the trunk can always be planted into the ground and grown larger.

As far as fall collecting, I have only done it a few times, but with a high success rate. But it was after a decent amount of time spent caring for potted trees. The problem is that no wounds will close over the winter so the tree sits open to fungal infections all winter. I don't know my betulas, but I believe they are a short lived species that are generally prone to that stuff. But like I said.. learn by doing. might as well try. I fall collected a a hop hornbeam a few Novembers ago. everything I read afterward made me believe they were fickle and hard to collect. I assumed it wouldn't make but it turned out to be one of the most robust trees I had every played with. Just sold it actually. Nothing trumps experience.

 

[Aphystic]

Good questions. The size/girth of the trunk just depends on the size of tree you want to create. The thicker the trunk (generally) the taller the tree. Of course a thick trunk can also be used to create a short powerful "sumo" tree. It's all a matter of taste. It is wise to buy or collect a trunk that is as big as you are looking for so you can begin the fun stuff, branching. I don't hesitate to collect younger stuff and grow it out personally, but that's just my style. Or was my style... my collection is almost non existent currently. I downsized hard. I can talk about this stuff all day but until you really start to see how much you can shorten internodes and what species will and won't play nicely, it's just kind of wasted air. I don't know much about birch, except that they are beautiful and can make great trees. If I were going to use one for bonsai, I personally, would be looking for a taller slender trunk because that is how I see them in the mountains and forests. A carrot sized trunk would typically be used to create a smaller tree. maybe less than 12" but the trunk can always be planted into the ground and grown larger.

As far as fall collecting, I have only done it a few times, but with a high success rate. But it was after a decent amount of time spent caring for potted trees. The problem is that no wounds will close over the winter so the tree sits open to fungal infections all winter. I don't know my betulas, but I believe they are a short lived species that are generally prone to that stuff. But like I said.. learn by doing. might as well try. I fall collected a a hop hornbeam a few Novembers ago. everything I read afterward made me believe they were fickle and hard to collect. I assumed it wouldn't make but it turned out to be one of the most robust trees I had every played with. Just sold it actually. Nothing trumps experience.

Cool!

I think I might grab it this week then, put it in a average sized normal pot and let it go dormant at my place.
Then in spring I'll chop it and hopefully see it make it through the summer? I guess I will have to wait until 2025 to plant it in a bonsai pot? Or do you reckon it can handle a chop, root pruning and repotting into bonsai pot?

 

[GGB]

Like I said, I think right now is a horrible time to collect. I trunk chop when I collect, since I'm reducing the root system during collection I reduce the branches so there is less demand on the new smaller root ball. I just told you to learn through experience though, so go for it if you want to. If you can collect almost all of the root system there shouldn't be a need to chop it. But I would hypothesize that the tree will be weak when it leafs out in spring, since it got disturbed and had to resettle at an awkward time of the year. So now you are just setting yourself back. Why have a tree that is weak and damaged this spring when you can collect one that is robust and ready to rip. I don't know where you are from, I can tell it's North of me though. I definitely wouldn't be chopping anything this time of year though. New growth needs time to mature before the first frost comes through. You can put any tree in a bonsai pot if it fits. It will more or less stop the trunk from thickening but if you are happy with the girth of the trunk then do it up. I think it's important to have fun when getting into this hobby.

 

[Aphystic]

Like I said, I think right now is a horrible time to collect. I trunk chop when I collect, since I'm reducing the root system during collection I reduce the branches so there is less demand on the new smaller root ball. I just told you to learn through experience though, so go for it if you want to. If you can collect almost all of the root system there shouldn't be a need to chop it. But I would hypothesize that the tree will be weak when it leafs out in spring, since it got disturbed and had to resettle at an awkward time of the year. So now you are just setting yourself back. Why have a tree that is weak and damaged this spring when you can collect one that is robust and ready to rip. I don't know where you are from, I can tell it's North of me though. I definitely wouldn't be chopping anything this time of year though. New growth needs time to mature before the first frost comes through. You can put any tree in a bonsai pot if it fits. It will more or less stop the trunk from thickening but if you are happy with the girth of the trunk then do it up. I think it's important to have fun when getting into this hobby.

The birch bleed a lot of sap in spring and early summer so I think a trunk chop is risky at those times as well, maybe if I put some paste on the cut?

I am all for trying myself but I need to have a hint about when I should dig it up and give it a rather rough pruning.
I could try collecting it now in autumn and when spring has arrived I could chop it and prune its roots and try to repot it?

 

[Dysfunctional Vet]

Be careful with the chop on birches, they like to die back, a lot sometimes. I always do major chops during the growing season. I’ve had real bad luck chopping them in the early spring like other deciduous trees I have.

 

[Aphystic]

Be careful with the chop on birches, they like to die back, a lot sometimes. I always do major chops during the growing season. I’ve had real bad luck chopping them in the early spring like other deciduous trees I have.

Maybe I’m better off digging it up late spring/early summer when the tree has has its first set of leaves and they’re mature/hardy. Dig it up, prune excessively both trunk and roots and try potting it in a bonsai pot.

They pollinate in April/may here in Sweden so maybe after pollinating?

 

[Alaskanrocket]

Ive dug two 2-3" trunk diameter paper birch, both in September (late fall here), one tree went immediately into a grow box and the other into the ground. The one in the box has done fine for the last two years and the one in the ground has almost been one year, I hard chopped it in late June and so far no dieback, I did chop it a couple inches above where my new apex was growing from in preparation for potential dieback but its been doing fine. Both of them seem to be fairly slower growing than i would have expected but are healthy nonetheless. I did have a pretty severe case of leaf miners this year so hopefully that has no ill effect on future growth, it does seem to be very prevalent among native birch in my area during late summer. Anyways, these are my limited experiences.

 

[Paradox]

Generally not a good idea to dig up a tree when it has leaves. These look a bit stressed right now due to heat and/or lack of water.

So if you cant be patient and do it at the right time and would like to just watch them die, have at it

 

[Shogun610]

Alright, are any of those a good candidate?

Will they grow new branches if chopped off if I would go for a bigger tree?

I would listen to what @GGB has told you. The guy knows his shit. Your best success rate is spring for deciduous. Collect in spring let it recover for a season or two then make decisions on cutting back. Try messing around with nursery stock first , find a local nursery that sells native plants. They will be better than these you posted , not trying to dog on you but those are pioneer plants , and it’s regrowing on rocky outcropping, a lot of birch aren’t good for bonsai. In fact Birch is the last deciduous that a beginner should try there is much to their success in bonsai culture.

 

[Shibui]

Regarding time of year: There's a lot of us who were told, when we were learning bonsai, that spring is the only time to transplant. It was drummed in and is still strong. Spring transplant does work but that doesn't mean it is the only way. There's plenty of brave growers who have tried other times and found they have success. It may depend on species or location or care but late summer/ autumn collection is worth trying IMHO - even for deciduous.
Birch, in particular, are known for dieback but best advice I have is that summer pruning overcomes that problem - mostly.
I usually collect and chop deciduous in one operation. Makes it easier to manage and to pot up and most deciduous soon sprout new shoots in the growing season.
Any of the trees shown would make good candidates for trials. They are not too big or special in case one or more don't make it but will give you valuable practice and knowledge about transplant.
While you learn with those less exciting trees you can keep an eye out for better trunks for another time.

 

[Tentakelaertje]

Pruning now or in a few weeks (for my climate) can result in lower winter die-back when kept protected, while the autumn growth/hardening lunge still has time to compartimentalise. Also, with the invention of wound putty/paste/etc wound closure should not be a problem so you'd be double safe. When I was at Harry's for a week a few years ago, the results of fall-collecting Betula, were, even just in April, already very promising. Keep in mind Harry's climate is generally a lot milder than Sweden so results can't be guaranteed and you might need measures like heat pads and a greenhouse installation to get similar results. I know he uses them. My own experience with fall-collecting birch however is limited to larger seedlings so I don't know enough from personal experience to tell you if results will be good.
Also, Swedish frost seems to bite harder than my local freezes and since weather also plays a really big role in the success of these things I can't give you more solid advice than "ask locally". It is possible to collect birch outside of the spring time-frame, but there's a lot of things determining success rates, not leastly how much energy and effort you're willing to put in.

With your collection (and assumed experience mostly) being tropicals, if put in your shoes, I'd wait for more experience with outside growing tbh.

 

[Aphystic]

With your collection (and assumed experience mostly) being tropicals, if put in your shoes, I'd wait for more experience with outside growing tbh.

I am a beginner by all means but do you mean wait with digging up a tree (yamadori?) or outdoors generally?

I wanna get to it and learn by doing but I also want to allow myself for the best possible circumstances.

I'll try to get a hold of more locally engaged bonsai knowledge, it is however limited in Sweden from what I've gathered. Just a couple thousand throughout the entire country!