Dieback/Back-Budding Questions

dbonsaiw

dbonsaiw

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This is my first season watching my trees respond to heavy pruning - fun times for this newbie. Much to my surprise, all the buds that grew on all my trunk-chopped trees grew very low. I also noticed that buds grew much more frequently adjacent to past wounds. So now the questions:

1 - If branches did not grow high enough and I don't want to chop the tree down to the highest growing shoot, I assume I can simply graft branches higher up next spring. My question is how do I determine how far back the trunk has died back so that I don't graft into dead wood?

2 - If buds actually grow better near wounds, anyone ever purposely wound the tree to encourage buds in a specific area?

3 - How long can a tree live without leaves (maple specifically)? If I chopped this spring and no buds emerged, is this tree done for or can it make it through to next year and bud then?
 
I have only been involved with bonsai for 2 years and I haven't played with grafting at this point.

Some species, notably spruces, when you bend the trunk and branches, micro scars are created from which you may get some back budding.

I never wounded the tree to get buds. Usually from what I've seen myself and heard from others, let the tree grow freely, fertilize it and make sure it's very healthy and you naturaly will get buds along the trunck and branches, and when you do, then you can prune to activate them.

If you do go for a trunk chop, make sure the tree is healthy and let the first growth in the spring harden off before doing it. In early spring, the tree is still using its reserves of energy. You have to give it a chance to put some leaves out and replinish its energy.
 
dbonsaiw said:
1 - If branches did not grow high enough and I don't want to chop the tree down to the highest growing shoot, I assume I can simply graft branches higher up next spring. My question is how do I determine how far back the trunk has died back so that I don't graft into dead wood?
Click to expand...
Don't attempt a graft on a bare trunk. You need some growth above the graft to draw the sap. Also, dieback will become apparent.
 
dbonsaiw said:
2 - If buds actually grow better near wounds, anyone ever purposely wound the tree to encourage buds in a specific area?
Click to expand...
I have but don't count on it. A wound is not always just a wound and you could cause more damage as well as allow for infection.
 
dbonsaiw said:
3 - How long can a tree live without leaves (maple specifically)? If I chopped this spring and no buds emerged, is this tree done for or can it make it through to next year and bud then?
Click to expand...
It is early and it may yet send buds forth this year. It is not going to remain dormant a year and then bud. If it doesn't bud this year it is trash.
 
I don't believe that buds grow from wounds as such. I have not seen evidence of this.
Buds DO grow from old branch collars because there was already a node at that point (branches grow from nodes) so buds WILL grow from wounds where branches have been removed but not from other wounds where there is no node.

Exception is elms which seem to have a rare ability to produce buds from any exposed cambium regardless of where it is on the trunk/branch.

dbonsaiw said:
If branches did not grow high enough and I don't want to chop the tree down to the highest growing shoot, I assume I can simply graft branches higher up next spring. My question is how do I determine how far back the trunk has died back so that I don't graft into dead wood?
Click to expand...
I agree with @penumbra that grafting will be much less likely to take on wood with no branches above. Trees quickly withdraw sap when there's no leaves/buds to send it to/from. If you can still find green cambium under the bark there's a slim chance of success but chances are there won't be enough sap flow to unite the graft.

I've seen some trees sprout new shoots after 3 or 4 months of looking lifeless but every week that passes with no leaves the chances of coming back diminish. I rarely throw a tree out until mid summer just in case.
 
I reckon it's always better to do what the tree wants, not what you want, cuz it always gets you what you want, it may just not be that tree or path that gets you it.
Buds too low is the favorable side of a chop.
More squat, more movement, more taper, more options, the list of benefits is huge.
By wanting something that didn't happen, you are actually creating the only downside to buds too low yourself. Just change your mind!

The way I see it, while you got your head down in a graft, 8 trees exactly like you wanted will pass you by.
Also, I seen at least 4, "I didn't get low enough buds" posts in the last year, so the odds for a trade to your want are in your favor.

If we all focused on working WITH the trees and each other, for like one year, we'd all have collections 300% better.
Instead we stay sheltered with our human selfishness, and collectively waste lifetimes.

Far as a budless tree growing...
If it missed the spring open window, the next large open window is post summer solstice, of this recognizable large pattern that is spring and fall growth.
There is a smaller moon cycle window it may move in, but the urge isn't as strong as the spring fall push, but if it's needing rootage, you may get them in a moon cycle which may allow it to bud.

Sorce

P.s. I keep thinking you're in Texas. Just so if you ever read anything that sounds like I think you're in Texas, maybe ignore it. Caught myself this time but....
Damn Avatar kinda looks like Texas.
Get that Empire State building up!
 
Much appreciated. I’ll wait till fall to see if the budless trees bud. If not, I guess I just have more bonsai soil. No big losses here in any event. I generally have zero complaints about low growing buds; I was just happily surprised that all were so low. In fact, one is actually perfect as I have my choice of new leaders and lower buds for sacrifice. Two trees, however, each only have one bud so far and they are right at the root flare. Wasn’t expecting to go this route, but If that’s all that pops I’ll likely start a new thread on what Merrigioli calls the “mighty trunk” and start growing me some wizard hats.

and a light bulb finally went off on what is better material. I’ve had my fill of big box trees. Of course I’ll continue to work the ones I have but it’s time for some bonsai-specific material that isn’t a sapling. Between what I have and some better material, I’ll have what to keep me occupied for the years to come as some sticks grow out.
 
If there is no growth high up on a recently-trunk-chopped tree, it's unusual and potentially a bad sign. The bare trunk may be dead down to the new branches. Happens sometimes. Worth doing a scratch test of the bare section.

BTW, wounding a tree to induce budding CAN work, but like most shortcuts, it's iffy and mostly doesn't work most of the time.
 
Shibui said:
Exception is elms which seem to have a rare ability to produce buds from any exposed cambium regardless of where it is on the trunk/branch.
Click to expand...
Elm is one of several exceptions.
 
penumbra said:
Timing is everything and it is species dependent. I know many tropicals bud from bare wood.
I see the die back has become apparent on your maple.
Click to expand...
@penumbra my post was a bit tongue-in-cheek, this was a last ditch effort to save a trident that I chopped mid summer (January 2021) which didn’t bud out at all. 7 months later by the next spring (August 2021) there was still green under the bark so I grafted 3 seedlings to the stump and did a prayer to Neptune himself 🔱

Luckily my rescue attempt worked out and I now have a very ugly but fat and healthy trident base to try figure out what to do with 👍🏻
 
misfit11 said:
This is amazing! I had a Trident that refused to bud out after a severe trunk chop like this (I think I chopped below any node. Live and learn 🙄). I never considered grafting to bring it back from the dead!
Click to expand...
I assume I also chopped below the lowest node, it just sulked all summer and bled out the top for around 6 weeks. Now it’s steaming ahead though. I severed the grafts from their roots a few months back this year and it didn’t skip a beat.

I do however have the inverse taper from the graft unions to deal with, but I’ll keep this one in my grow bed to keep growing and fattening and try create a gnarly sumo trident. It will never be pretty but it should be quite impressive eventually.
 
SeanS said:
I assume I also chopped below the lowest node, it just sulked all summer and bled out the top for around 6 weeks. Now it’s steaming ahead though. I severed the grafts from their roots a few months back this year and it didn’t skip a beat.

I do however have the inverse taper from the graft unions to deal with, but I’ll keep this one in my grow bed to keep growing and fattening and try create a gnarly sumo trident. It will never be pretty but it should be quite impressive eventually.
Click to expand...
People often make too big a fuss about inverse taper, IMO. You can make this into a spreading, "Oak Style" tree. Check out what Walter Pall call "Fairy Tale" trees.
 
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