Did I doom a JBP?

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

Hello, I'm new to bonsai, hence this forum, I've currently got 2 JBPs, a trident maple, a procumbens nana, shimpaku juniper, and a p afra. The procumbens is the only one that has been styled so far, the rest are all just in pots growing/waiting for a repotting season.

The smaller of my two JBP (I think probably 2 years old, maybe 3 at the most) I definitely messed up with. I decandled it in May, when I was just learning about that process for the first time. It has now grown buds around the base of the former candles and a couple have sprouted up on other parts of the tree. Now that I know a little more, I plan to not do anything more to the tree except watering and fertilizing for a while and let it gain some strength. Next year I'll probably put it in a pond basket.

However, on that point, it does have a pair of handlebar branches, the lowest ones on the tree, should I remove one of them, or would it be okay to let it go a year until next spring without pruning without risking a bulge at that spot?

 

[Paradox]

Hello, I'm new to bonsai, hence this forum, I've currently got 2 JBPs, a trident maple, a procumbens nana, shimpaku juniper, and a p afra. The procumbens is the only one that has been styled so far, the rest are all just in pots growing/waiting for a repotting season.

The smaller of my two JBP (I think probably 2 years old, maybe 3 at the most) I definitely messed up with. I decandled it in May, when I was just learning about that process for the first time. It has now grown buds around the base of the former candles and a couple have sprouted up on other parts of the tree. Now that I know a little more, I plan to not do anything more to the tree except watering and fertilizing for a while and let it gain some strength. Next year I'll probably put it in a pond basket.

However, on that point, it does have a pair of handlebar branches, the lowest ones on the tree, should I remove one of them, or would it be okay to let it go a year until next spring without pruning without risking a bulge at that spot?

Not doomed, just pretty early to decandle in May. Can you post pictures of the tree so we can get a better look at what you are talking about and give you better advice?

 

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

Not doomed, just pretty early to decandle in May. Can you post pictures of the tree so we can get a better look at what you are talking about and give you better advice?

Sure, here's the little tree in question, also a shot of the handlebars and some of the new buds. I wired the handlebars outward from the trunk, not sure why I thought that was a good idea, but I figure no harm in having them both level if I'm going to eventually take one off anyway

 

[Paradox]

Sure, here's the little tree in question, also a shot of the handlebars and some of the new buds. I wired the handlebars outward from the trunk, not sure why I thought that was a good idea, but I figure no harm in having them both level if I'm going to eventually take one off anyway

Thanks for the pictures.
First off, this pine is way too young to be decandling at this point. You are slowing down growth needed to develop a bigger trunk and bigger tree!
We decandle pines when they are further along in development.
For right now, feed the tree some fertilizer once a month. This fall, in September or October, put more wire on that trunk and gently bend some movement into it.
Generally we like to have branches on the outside of bends so your correct in that eventually you will want to eliminate one of those branches OR you can bend one up with wire for a new apex down low and use the current apex as a sacrifice branch/trunk to get a bigger trunk/tree.
Meanwhile, take the time between now and fall to learn about growing out pines.
There are lots of threads here showing how people did it and Im sure there are other places online with good info
Bonsai Tonight, Bonsai Empire are two good examples.

Otherwise, welcome to BNut and the madness that is little trees in pots!

 

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

Thanks for the pictures.
First off, this pine is way too young to be decandling at this point. You are slowing down growth needed to develop a bigger trunk and bigger tree!
We decandle pines when they are further along in development.
For right now, feed the tree some fertilizer once a month. This fall, in September or October, put more wire on that trunk and gently bend some movement into it.
Generally we like to have branches on the outside of bends so your correct in that eventually you will want to eliminate one of those branches OR you can bend one up with wire for a new apex down low and use the current apex as a sacrifice branch/trunk to get a bigger trunk/tree.
Meanwhile, take the time between now and fall to learn about growing out pines.
There are lots of threads here showing how people did it and Im sure there are other places online with good info
Bonsai Tonight, Bonsai Empire are two good examples.

Otherwise, welcome to BNut and the madness that is little trees in pots!

Yes, I've learned quite a bit already since I picked up that baby tree, the plan for quite some time is to let it grow wild and develop, although if all the buds caused by the early decandling remain I wouldn't be upset as there are a lot of them.

On that note, though, I have also picked up another JBP I'm trying to "do things right" from the beginning with, I'll stick a pic here, is it possible to induce a bud on the outside of that initial curve? I would love to have a branch coming out of that side but I'm not sure how to go about that, as I've read that over time, older parts of a black pine lose the ability to grow adventitious buds.

 

[Paradox]

Yes, I've learned quite a bit already since I picked up that baby tree, the plan for quite some time is to let it grow wild and develop, although if all the buds caused by the early decandling remain I wouldn't be upset as there are a lot of them.

On that note, though, I have also picked up another JBP I'm trying to "do things right" from the beginning with, I'll stick a pic here, is it possible to induce a bud on the outside of that initial curve? I would love to have a branch coming out of that side but I'm not sure how to go about that, as I've read that over time, the ability of older parts of a black pine lose the ability to grow adventitious buds.

The tree is young enough to produced advantageous buds but there is no way to guarantee a bud exactly where you want it.
For now Id feed the tree well and see what happens next spring. You can also wire this one up and bend it in the fall like the other one
This tree also has a long way to go and you may see other possibilities as it grows

 

[WNC Bonsai]

This tree is not to young to decandle if yiur goal is a mame or shohin tree. Take a look at Eric’s video on the subject.

 

[Esolin]

It should recover. Black Pines are tough. But it doesn't have a ton of healthy foliage right now, so I wouldn't take anything else off. You won't get a bulge from handlebars in just one year, certainly not one that won't smooth out as the tree gets bigger. I'm more worried it's being over watered. The yellowing needles make me think it's staying too wet. My pines like being drier than most of my other bonsai.

 

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

It should recover. Black Pines are tough. But it doesn't have a ton of healthy foliage right now, so I wouldn't take anything else off. You won't get a bulge from handlebars in just one year, certainly not one that won't smooth out as the tree gets bigger. I'm more worried it's being over watered. The yellowing needles make me think it's staying too wet. My pines like being drier than most of my other bonsai.

That could be, I'll move them to the far end of the bench where they won't catch water when I spray the juniper

 

[Shibui]

The 'handlebars' which we know as bar branches should not create too much swelling in just a year while growing in a pot.
I note that you have wired both with the plan to maybe remove 1 later. I would suggest an alternative. Consider removing the main trunk instead. The current main trunk has little taper so is not the best choice of trunk line even though you have wired in some bends you cannot wire in taper. Good bonsai relies on trunk taper to simulate a mature tree trunk. The easiest way to get taper in trunks is to chop and replace thick with thin. In this case, the larger branch will probably become the trunk and the smaller branch will be the first branch. developing pine bonsai is often a series of these grow, chop and replace to develop a trunk with bends, taper and branches. I would bend the larger branch upward a bit now while it is still flexible so it will have better lines when it becomes the new trunk. Or maybe one of the new shoot a little higher could be used for the new trunk line. Plenty of time to make those decisions as the tree grows and thickens.

For now, to get some thickening, the main trunk can be allowed to grow as fast and as big as possible to add bulk to the lower trunk. Decandling slows this process which is why it's not encouraged for young trees but your experiment has shown you how decandling works. You should probably also learn that May is a bit early to achieve the desired small shoots but that's no problem now.

 

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

The 'handlebars' which we know as bar branches should not create too much swelling in just a year while growing in a pot.
I note that you have wired both with the plan to maybe remove 1 later. I would suggest an alternative. Consider removing the main trunk instead. The current main trunk has little taper so is not the best choice of trunk line even though you have wired in some bends you cannot wire in taper. Good bonsai relies on trunk taper to simulate a mature tree trunk. The easiest way to get taper in trunks is to chop and replace thick with thin. In this case, the larger branch will probably become the trunk and the smaller branch will be the first branch. developing pine bonsai is often a series of these grow, chop and replace to develop a trunk with bends, taper and branches. I would bend the larger branch upward a bit now while it is still flexible so it will have better lines when it becomes the new trunk. Or maybe one of the new shoot a little higher could be used for the new trunk line. Plenty of time to make those decisions as the tree grows and thickens.

For now, to get some thickening, the main trunk can be allowed to grow as fast and as big as possible to add bulk to the lower trunk. Decandling slows this process which is why it's not encouraged for young trees but your experiment has shown you how decandling works. You should probably also learn that May is a bit early to achieve the desired small shoots but that's no problem now.

Thank you! I had not considered cutting it that far back, but now that you mention it that would definitely provide some taper. If I am understanding black pines, the time to do that would be in the late fall, is that right? Would such dramatic pruning delay a repot into a pond basket in the spring?

 

[Shibui]

Thank you! I had not considered cutting it that far back, but now that you mention it that would definitely provide some taper. If I am understanding black pines, the time to do that would be in the late fall, is that right? Would such dramatic pruning delay a repot into a pond basket in the spring?

Down here time of year for pruning pines does not matter. I chop whenever I feel the need.
I would probably NOT chop your tree this year and maybe not even next year. Pruning definitely slows thickening. If you want a thin trunk for the foreseeable future chop soon, but if you aspire to a thicker trunk let it grow for 2, 3 or 5 years then chop.
Allowing part of a tree to grow with the express purpose of thickening the trunk is called sacrifice branch. My usual JBP development schedule is a series of grow and chops over 10-15 years. Allow 1 or 2 sacrifice branches to grow, sometimes to over a metre long or until the sacrifice is getting too thick and will leave too big of a scar when removed or if the lower branches (which will be your real bonsai eventually, show signs of weakening) then chop back.

 

[cmu268]

I highly recommend picking up a copy of Julian Adams' book "Growing Pines for Bonsai". It has been super helpful for me having just started a couple years ago. I didn't really know what to do during my first growing season, but now I've got a much better handle on JBP techniques and timing. If you also have or get into single flush pines, his book covers techniques for those too.

 

[bwaynef]

Since the decandling-way-too-early piece has been dealt with, I won't hammer away on that. What's the wire on the tree for, though?

A resource on developing pines from seeds/young material and understanding decandling (and when not to) that I'd recommend is Bonsaify's Shohin JBP Masterclass.

 

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

Since the decandling-way-too-early piece has been dealt with, I won't hammer away on that. What's the wire on the tree for, though?

A resource on developing pines from seeds/young material and understanding decandling (and when not to) that I'd recommend is Bonsaify's Shohin JBP Masterclass.

Honestly, I was just kind of experimenting and trying to put some movement into the trunk, gripped by the enthusiasm of a beginner who didn't know enough to know how much I didn't know (although that's still true, I bought that little tree in I think late April)

 

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

I highly recommend picking up a copy of Julian Adams' book "Growing Pines for Bonsai". It has been super helpful for me having just started a couple years ago. I didn't really know what to do during my first growing season, but now I've got a much better handle on JBP techniques and timing. If you also have or get into single flush pines, his book covers techniques for those too.

Awesome, I'll look for a copy, thanks!

 

[Empty Mountain]

Honestly, I was just kind of experimenting and trying to put some movement into the trunk, gripped by the enthusiasm of a beginner who didn't know enough to know how much I didn't know (although that's still true, I bought that little tree in I think late April)

I think what bwaynef is seeing is the wire wrapped around a straight trunk with no bends put into it to give it the movement you were trying to achieve. It seems like the wire isn't doing much to train the shape of your tree.

 

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

I think what bwaynef is seeing is the wire wrapped around a straight trunk with no bends put into it to give it the movement you were trying to achieve. It seems like the wire isn't doing much to train the shape of your tree.

OH! I misunderstood, there's a bend further up that's mostly using the trunk as an anchor

 

[Paradox]

OH! I misunderstood, there's a bend further up that's mostly using the trunk as an anchor

Ok but you're going to end up with a very straight, boring trunk that all of a sudden turns 90 degeees to the side. I'd wait until October and add another wire to that trunk and put some movement into it. Summer is not the right time to wire and bend trees