Curling leaves on newly collected trees

[Matte91]

You already ruined my thread. Thank you very much for helping me save my trees! Reported.

 

[AJL]

The pebbles I use are NOT coated.
The roots underneath the pebbles are 100 procent covered in spagnum moss.

Those 'pebbles' look exactly like hydroleca granules and like he said they will not hold sufficient water as they are baked clay with a hard coating so you need to review your planting medium if you want your plants to thrive . Mixing in a bit of moss simply wont cure the problem

 

[AJL]

And by the way Peter 44 isnt a troll .

 

[sorce]

There are contact with the roots. The soil are pebbles mixed with spagnum moss and mycelium. But you are probably right with the rest. Thank you.

This is as close as I can come to an argument.

This is merely someone who has first hand contact with what is invisible to our eyes telling us what only he can know.

Cleared that Bullshit up!

Sorry @Matte91 ...you have received all the information you need!

Skirrrrrt.

Sorce

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

The pebbles I use are NOT coated.
The roots underneath the pebbles are 100 procent covered in spagnum moss.

If they float for more than 24 hours in water, they're probably not good for anything other than hydroponics. It's a simple test you can try. Pumice can float for a long time too, but once it does get wet, it usually absorbs water easily after that. With these high fired clay pebbles, that might not be the case.
If they do sink, I can recommend using a smaller size.

 

[Matte91]

If they float for more than 24 hours in water, they're probably not good for anything other than hydroponics. It's a simple test you can try. Pumice can float for a long time too, but once it does get wet, it usually absorbs water easily after that. With these high fired clay pebbles, that might not be the case.
If they do sink, I can recommend using a smaller size.

I already tested it and they sink, they do NOT float for even 1 second they sink right away. I already tried using smaller sizes in other mixes and they are too wet for a too long time. The size i'm using in this mix are 7-10 cm.

Would anyone recommend a clear bag when the roots collaps due to bad rootsystem?

 

[Matte91]

Those 'pebbles' look exactly like hydroleca granules and like he said they will not hold sufficient water as they are baked clay with a hard coating so you need to review your planting medium if you want your plants to thrive . Mixing in a bit of moss simply wont cure the problem

As I said many times now:
The pebbles are NOT COATED. And yes they actually hold water. I tested it.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

A plastic bag could help, but then you'll have to deal with fungal issues. It's good to keep bagged plants out of the full sun, because it can get pretty hot pretty fast.
It's important to ventilate those bags if you use them.

I'm personally not a big fan of bags, the wind easily gets them and it takes a lot of effort to prevent mold and fungal growth. The plants also need some adjustment when they go back to regular conditions, the process of making holes in the bag so the humidity decreases can take a week or two.
I would however, start using them before anything collapses, dead trees don't root easily.

 

[Matte91]

A plastic bag could help, but then you'll have to deal with fungal issues. It's good to keep bagged plants out of the full sun, because it can get pretty hot pretty fast.
It's important to ventilate those bags if you use them.

I'm personally not a big fan of bags, the wind easily gets them and it takes a lot of effort to prevent mold and fungal growth. The plants also need some adjustment when they go back to regular conditions, the process of making holes in the bag so the humidity decreases can take a week or two.
I would however, start using them before anything collapses, dead trees don't root easily.

Thank you for that information. I'm really in a big dilemma whether I should use the bag or not because the roots could get fungus as you said. Especially when they has been too wet for too long.
What if I place a bag on the trunk and not over the pot/soil?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

It's actually the trunk and foliage that I would be worried about getting fungal issues, because of the lack of air circulation and humidity.
I've done bagged cuttings a whole bunch of times and many of them didn't survive because of those issues.
Removing the bag regularly and letting it breathe can improve your chances. But keeping it off for too long can dessicate the foliage that's adjusted to high humidity.
It's a difficult balance. That's why I prefer not using bags and just accept that things don't make it. It costs some trees, but it saves me a lot of work and worrying. I see keeping plants as a hobby, much like fishing: a rod will never break if you don't use it. But if you are going for the big fish, it might break. That's not going to stop me from fishing. I'll just get another rod.

 

[sorce]

I'll just get another rod.

Lol!

But seriously...

We are going after that big fish, a better bonsai.
We know then to accomplish that mission, we may have to bump the rod size up. Use healthier/stronger material.

Or, if we choose to stay with the same light tackle...
You gotta finesse em.
Which means use a lighter hand in the first place.

Using bags and all that, is kinda like putting illegal fish in a bucket, thinking you'll eat, but leaving it up to chance that DNR won't come fine you, and release your lunch.

If we Really, want that big fish, and to eat,

NEVER leave it in the hands of law enforcement.

Sorce

 

[Matte91]

It's actually the trunk and foliage that I would be worried about getting fungal issues, because of the lack of air circulation and humidity.
I've done bagged cuttings a whole bunch of times and many of them didn't survive because of those issues.
Removing the bag regularly and letting it breathe can improve your chances. But keeping it off for too long can dessicate the foliage that's adjusted to high humidity.
It's a difficult balance. That's why I prefer not using bags and just accept that things don't make it. It costs some trees, but it saves me a lot of work and worrying. I see keeping plants as a hobby, much like fishing: a rod will never break if you don't use it. But if you are going for the big fish, it might break. That's not going to stop me from fishing. I'll just get another rod.

Thank you for your time and all the information. I think I won't use the bags for now, perhaps I will try using it on one of the trees.

 

[ConorDash]

These small pebbles/substrate that is being used, and talked about. Have you used them successfully before, on other trees? If so, it would speak for a lot, as you have experience using them. If not, I would be worried and think @Wires_Guy_wires is correct.

I have to admit, when I first saw them I thought the particle size was really huge and looked odd but I dont have enough experience to comment on it.
If the roots are 100% covered in the moss, could we perhaps remove the top layer of these pebbles? Might give a better look and idea of condition of the substrate. Also will help you with watering, as you are looking at the pebbles which I would imagine get dry rather fast (as the top layer of most substrates do) and not able to see the moss moisture retention underneath.

Edit: I didnt see second page sorry, well maybe my comments are still somewhat useful

 

[Matte91]

These small pebbles/substrate that is being used, and talked about. Have you used them successfully before, on other trees? If so, it would speak for a lot, as you have experience using them. If not, I would be worried and think @Wires_Guy_wires is correct.

I have to admit, when I first saw them I thought the particle size was really huge and looked odd but I dont have enough experience to comment on it.
If the roots are 100% covered in the moss, could we perhaps remove the top layer of these pebbles? Might give a better look and idea of condition of the substrate. Also will help you with watering, as you are looking at the pebbles which I would imagine get dry rather fast (as the top layer of most substrates do) and not able to see the moss moisture retention underneath.

Edit: I didnt see second page sorry, well maybe my comments are still somewhat useful

I have used the pebbles before in other mixes, both the small size and the big size. I repotted 50 prebonsai in this spring. The mix used for the 50 trees were pebbles, akadama and some pinebark. All the trees had white roots and the rootballs had grown really big in the mix. I use another mix for my bonsai. My dad has been using pebbles for over 10+ years. There are absolutly better alternatives than pebbles, but not in Danmark. Bonsai soil is really expensive, even though Denmark produce a fired clay like akadama, it cost alot. That's why i'm using bonsaisoil for my bonsai and another mix for my prebonsai.

Trust me, the pebbles do not dry out fast. They are actually capable of holding a great amount of water, because they are not coated. The pebbles I use is fired clay, but the surface has not been fired. If you look at one pebble under a microscop you will see alot of small air pockets all over the pebble. That's why they hold on so much water.
As said I have tried using them in a smaller 3-7 size but they never dry out, it takes many days for them to dry even though if they are used alone. I'm using the small size for my small prebonsai. And the big size for my bigger prebonsai.
I have used the both sizes for many years together with akadama and pinebark. This time i'm using it together with spagnum moss.
There are of course better alternatives to pebbles, but they are hard to find in Denmark. If you have better alternatives, please let me know.

 

[ConorDash]

I have used the pebbles before in other mixes, both the small size and the big size. I repotted 50 prebonsai in this spring. The mix used for the 50 trees were pebbles, akadama and some pinebark. All the trees had white roots and the rootballs had grown really big in the mix. I use another mix for my bonsai. My dad has been using pebbles for over 10+ years. There are absolutly better alternatives than pebbles, but not in Danmark. Bonsai soil is really expensive, even though Denmark produce a fired clay like akadama, it cost alot. That's why i'm using bonsaisoil for my bonsai and another mix for my prebonsai.

Trust me, the pebbles do not dry out fast. They are actually capable of holding a great amount of water, because they are not coated. The pebbles I use is fired clay, but the surface has not been fired. If you look at one pebble under a microscop you will see alot of small air pockets all over the pebble. That's why they hold on so much water.
As said I have tried using them in a smaller 3-7 size but they never dry out, it takes many days for them to dry even though if they are used alone. I'm using the small size for my small prebonsai. And the big size for my bigger prebonsai.
I have used the both sizes for many years together with akadama and pinebark. This time i'm using it together with spagnum moss.
There are of course better alternatives to pebbles, but they are hard to find in Denmark. If you have better alternatives, please let me know.

Cool, in that case could they be holding too much water, creating an over watering problem?
Too much or too little water is by and large the more common cause of these sort of leave problems. Especially on an Elm, as Elms can deal with wind and sun (unlike Maples).

 

[Matte91]

Cool, in that case could they be holding too much water, creating an over watering problem?
Too much or too little water is by and large the more common cause of these sort of leave problems. Especially on an Elm, as Elms can deal with wind and sun (unlike Maples).

As mentioned (see post #3) the roots has been too wet for too long because of too much organic soil in the mix not because of the pebbles, combined with a very wet winter and spring. The roots hasn't been growing and because of that the roots can't support the leaves.
I know what the problem is, but I don't what to do.

 

[ConorDash]

Im afraid that does not explain it.
Being in too organic and having a lot of rain, means nothing. Trees planted in the ground are in all organic and it rains when it rains, that's not up for debate.. Mother nature does it best.

If you are confident in your substrate and watering habits now, then that's it, you are perfect, there's nothing more to do now, except allow time to get the tree healthy.

 

[Matte91]

Im afraid that does not explain it.
Being in too organic and having a lot of rain, means nothing. Trees planted in the ground are in all organic and it rains when it rains, that's not up for debate.. Mother nature does it best.

If you are confident in your substrate and watering habits now, then that's it, you are perfect, there's nothing more to do now, except allow time to get the tree healthy.

Sorry but you can't compare trees in nature with trees in pots when it comes to soilmixes. Why do you think people use bonsaisoil instead of pure organic soil like in the nature?
If I used pure organic soil in my pots then the roots would rot in a couple of months I guarantee you that, that's what happened with my Elms. So please don't compare mother nature with having trees in pots wich has nothing to do with mother nature.
Ciao.

 

[ConorDash]

Sorry but you can't compare trees in nature with trees in pots when it comes to soilmixes. Why do you think people use bonsaisoil instead of pure organic soil like in the nature?
If I used pure organic soil in my pots then the roots would rot in a couple of months I guarantee you that, that's what happened with my Elms. So please don't compare mother nature with having trees in pots wich has nothing to do with mother nature.
Ciao.

Sure, ok dokie no worries.

You seem to have a confident handle on what’s right and wrong and what to do so I will leave you to it. Good luck, I hope the tree recovers from whatever issue it may have, speedily.

 

[August44]

For roots to wet, for to long, put tree in oven at 450 for 2 hours per inch. No more problem!